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corporalpunishment42 Posted on 25/06/2020 10:38
Mike Wedderburn
Think he did a really good job with his piece to camera. Simple, to the point, short.

Cut right through the woke BS on one side and the laying it on thick on the other.

Fair play to him
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corporalpunishment42 Posted on 25/06/2020 10:40

Mike Wedderburn

The clip if you haven't seen it

Link: Clip
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muschi Posted on 25/06/2020 10:48

Mike Wedderburn

Some pretty poor examples e.g. likely to get stop and searched. Because black kids are stabbing each other on a daily basis, S&S was increased to reduce the stabbings and hundreds of knives are now out of circulation as a result. As for working in kitchens etc guess the irony speaking to millions via his privileged position is lost on him?
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Bluestow Posted on 25/06/2020 11:15

Mike Wedderburn

Seems like you’re not listening.

He, an intelligent, successful, news presenter gets stopped, because...? Yes, there is a problem with black gangs, but why? Who’d want to be in a gang?

Not sure where the irony is in him speaking out. You’ll have to explain that one to me.
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corporalpunishment42 Posted on 25/06/2020 12:08
Edited On: 25/06/2020 12:25
Mike Wedderburn

Muschi, I don't think what you think, feel or what you have written is factually or politically "wrong" but what I have found interesting about your post is that it actually serves to prove Wedderburn's point (personal experience in his case).

And that point is that white people are suspicious of black people and treat then differently.

Is that suspicion unwarranted? No, I don't think it is. It is a reportable fact that black lads are getting involved in knife crime.

The point that I think he is making is that they are being held to different standards and being treated differently as a result.

This is all a premise. The narrative, nay, reporting, is that knife crime is a black thing. It's a thought that has been given to us and we perpetuate and believe - we are literally being told what to think and it is predjudicing our behaviour.

The truth is that all shades of the Dulux colour chart are shanking each other. And every colour under the rainbow are stopped and searched - we are on a football foum and we have all been away fans, so we know this first hand.

But that's not the narrative and thus we are not as suspicious and judgemental of whites, yellows, beiges that we should be. That's not what is being reported. So I completely agree and understand where Muschi is coming from. It's entirely reasonable for that to be his reaction to what he sees and hears in our press.

Hence Wedderburn's point about life being "angled away". It's influclencing a greater suspicion and heavier hand over one colour of person over another.

Black knife crime is reported as black. Asian knife crime is reported as Asian. White knife crime is reported simply as a "stabbing".

There is an irony that he is a part of the media. The headlines that have tried to tear Raheeem Sterling down are an excellent case study in what he and the black community are up against.

It all starts with the media. And it ends with the media too. The headlines need to be race neutral. If they stop telling us that black people are suspicious and untrustworthy folk then we will trust them and stop being suspicious of them.

And if they start telling us about the same crime being committed by all the other races then we are not going to be so adversive of black people because they will be showing us the whole problem, not a discriminated portion of it.

If there's a stabbing, report it. But report them all and leave colour out of it. Person commits crime should be the narrative.

The argument can be tested to breaking point if you change the minority to something else. If the Germans decided they wanted to conquer Europe again then they would report German hostility and we would be very suspicious and untrusting of Germans. But if the Italians also started doing it, would the media report that? Of course they would. They would not choose not to report on Italian genocide and just be selective about reporting German aggression.

And there's the rub. The media are being selective.

And that's influencing our behaviour.

Hence BLM.

If they want to be successful, they need to start top down, with overcompensated, landed, pompous and privileged toffs who control the media and still see them as "the help".
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exgaffer Posted on 25/06/2020 12:41

Mike Wedderburn

Well that’s an extremely long post to miss most of the relevant points corporal.

Knife crime is usually reported as knife crime, and the media are ‘extremely’ reluctant to report the ethnicity or religion of the perpetrator.

You actually have to look at the figures to see that most knife crime IS black. As for not wanting to join a gang, are you for real? There is a definite ‘gangsta’ culture isn’t there and the rap lyrics tend to bear that out.

The fact that the geezer IS successful and well off tends to negate his argument wouldn’t you say?

If knife crime was found to be predominantly a white issue, I wouldn’t object to being searched, if it made the streets safer. You also conveniently omit the fact that a lot of the police officers conducting the searches are black or Asian.

By far the biggest problem for your argument is not the statement ‘black lives matter’ (and if that is true then the statement ‘white lives matter’ must be equally valid) but the fact that BLM is a Marxist organisation. It is using the useful idiots who see racism where there is none to further its cause. It seeks to end capitalism, ‘whiteness’ and the ‘patriarchy’. It is not a fluffy ‘let’s all love each other’ organisation.

Anyone who thinks that a banner bearing the statement ‘white lives matter’ is offensive, is in the wrong country imo.
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corporalpunishment42 Posted on 25/06/2020 12:46
Edited On: 25/06/2020 23:36
Mike Wedderburn

Thanks for that gaffer.

There are now two posts on this thread that prove Wedderburn's point.

How do you know about "gangsta" culture? Own goal.

7 letters across, starts with a C: circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood. Features heavily and central message in the clip you're giving an opinion on that you didn't watch.

As you were.
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jizzbag Posted on 25/06/2020 14:18

Mike Wedderburn

Nearly every XXXXXX rap song has gangster connotations. B i t c h e s, derogatory terms for black people, drugs, guns, violence.

Doesn't really help their cause when the brothers sing (loose term) about this stuff does it?
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muschi Posted on 25/06/2020 14:32

Mike Wedderburn

I wonder where mr wedderburn lives - i bet it's not brixton.

S&S - I've been subject to it many times as probably have most of the match going posters on this board.At first I found it mildly irritating but on reflection realised it just might stop some loon sticking a knife in my back.
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Deebo Posted on 25/06/2020 14:39

Mike Wedderburn

So another woke celeb has jumped on the "me too brother" bandwagon. Why does the fact he is black make it any more relevant? I think my friend Shylesh a hospital radiographer from a poor part of India has an equally valid perspective. He loves it here, has a wonderfully high achieving family who have assimilated well and says he loves this country and it has made him what he is. No doubt his opinion won't be considered as valid as a, lets face it, mediocre minor celeb, not particularly good at his job when compared to any number of other news people of differing ethnicity we see everyday on our screens. Where does the accent come from btw? Eton old sausage?
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corporalpunishment42 Posted on 25/06/2020 15:05

Mike Wedderburn

He addresses why it is relevant to him in the clip you didn't watch
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malcm Posted on 25/06/2020 15:14

Mike Wedderburn

Born Portsmouth
Educated Portsmouth Grammar
Lives Oxfordshire
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Deebo Posted on 25/06/2020 15:21
Edited On: 25/06/2020 15:59
Mike Wedderburn

Yes I watched it and saw nothing I considered at all relevant as to what has happened personally to him apart from an obtuse reference to stop and search which can happen to anybody I can assure you. I'll stick to Shy's interpretation for life in the UK for a man of colour. Did you read it?
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suffolkpompey Posted on 25/06/2020 15:34

Mike Wedderburn

For every problem he listed for being black, you can say the same for anyone who is white, except one, and that is the fact that he is allowed to say Black lives matter, but I'm not allowed to say White lives matter.
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hutch83 Posted on 25/06/2020 22:50

Mike Wedderburn

Just trying to read through the nitpicking and understanding the debate Mushi and ex; fair point about knife crime and you dont like the ceremony of taking the knee- fair enough. Do you think there is no issue at all and black people need to just get on with it despite the statistical evidence? Do you think it's all groundless nonsense? Just trying to make sense of the anti black lives matter position Thanks
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muschi Posted on 25/06/2020 23:18

Mike Wedderburn

In simple terms the comparison between the USA (more to the point southern USA) and the UK is pathetic.

How many black people have the UK police murdered? If any it is very few, the number of black people who have died in police custody is 10 in the last decade. That is not to say police action caused their deaths just a factual number. Looking a little deeper it seems one was avoidable i.e. faster involvement of the medical professionals may have saved him. In the same period 64 white people have died in police custody.

This tends to suggest our police (although they have lost most of my respect) do not habitually kill people.

Is there a problem in the black community? Yes for sure but also in the white community. Lots of ethnic people adapt to UK life and make a success of it, lots of the white community are a waste of oxygen so lets not kid ourselves the black community have no chance in life. Look at the make up of our cabinet where black people are over represented. Similarly most sports and most TV.

I honestly believe the left wing culture of being offended by the most trivial of things is an excuse many black people use to define racism, a word, a glance anything to make an excuse for not taking the opportunities this country offers.

Hope this helps a little.
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muschi Posted on 26/06/2020 00:11

Mike Wedderburn

Well hutch you asked a question I have replied. I could expand it but would prefer to tread your thoughts having read mine.
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hutch83 Posted on 26/06/2020 07:14

Mike Wedderburn

Thanks Mushi, I completely understand your view and do agree that the counter argument isn't given room in the media and it is, instead just presented as a load of thugs intimidating picnic goers and fighting badly. It is nuanced and boiling down to any symbol is crass. My thoughts are:

I agree too that social media has muddied the waters between the American BLM movement and the movement here, especially where police brutality is concerned. I reckon figures can be manipulated to suit any opinion. Does the 10 deaths you mention mean black people are 'more likely' to die in police custody? We're told the answer is yes, which may be a coincidence and with so few cases, the study isn't valid. The stop and search, conviction rate etc add context though and seem to suggest different behaviours- why is this? Music and gang culture? Yes, maybe to an extent but why is that their culture? Has years of inferior housing, services and education helped to create that? Another factor is that so many of the black lives in football and entertainment are not necessarily black British and the Cabinet over representation is in fact entirely Asian- zero afro Caribbean or black African.

You're spot on about a number of people here, black and white, being complete losers and there being successful black individuals in law, business etc. I think the American movement has spawned a reaction in other countries (mainly European former colonies) and the evidence suggests that black people are more likely to live in poverty, have poorer qualifications and be seen as sporty or singers. Asians by contrast seem under-represented in these areas but do disproportionately better than all races in education. There's clearly a disparity, which it will do no harm to look at and put right; I think Britain would be a better place if it was a true meritocracy.
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muschi Posted on 26/06/2020 09:15

Mike Wedderburn

A good start here, it's what debate should be about.

Regarding the deaths in custody, it's not a study just a factual record of the last decade , no attempt to understand the context or reasoning behind it.

Didn't realise the cabinet make up is as you suggest but it supports what I think and even more asks the question why? Have to say I don't recognise most of them and had never heard of most until they pop up on TV with some statement or other.

Now to the important part, again the media have a major responsibility, For decades race was a taboo subject, everyone scared to tell the truth for fear of being called racist, witness the Asian grooming gangs scandal, so many knew about, so few did anything.

Result? A generation grew up knowing they could get away with anything and scream racism if they got caught. This is where education comes in. Education begins in the home, it is not purely down to schools and I feel far too many parents abdicate their responsibility then blame schools for the result. This is of course common to most races except Asians who take it more seriously than most with the effect as you describe in over representation in the high skill group.

How to fix it, I really don't know, I grew up in sub standard housing, no CH no double glazing one indoor toilet between 10 of us. That is why I find the housing issue to be a bit of a red herring. Discipline is the keyword, how it gets instilled is way beyond my capabilities.
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exgaffer Posted on 26/06/2020 10:54

Mike Wedderburn

Excellent stuff Muschi and Hutch.
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jizzbag Posted on 26/06/2020 11:11

Mike Wedderburn

I think the excuse of poor living standards is just that...an excuse. Basically there are a lot of lazy useless people out there, white and black. The asians both east and south value education more than black Africans imho, maybe generalising a bit but they don't seem to play the race card, unlike those of black african descent.
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hutch83 Posted on 26/06/2020 11:21

Mike Wedderburn

It's crazy to see how aligned the opposing 'sides' are. I totally agree about education and the fact that race has been disregarded for years- even denied! Moving forward more needs to be done to address this. There's a complete lack of taking responsibility from so many parents that schools get the burden of having to solve all of society's ills- knife crime, child abuse, county lines etc. However, our curriculum does needs to change to no longer fail to address the elephant in the room and to ensure consistency.

The way I see it, BLM is not a binary choice, even within the protests, some will think they are showing support for the situation in the USA, others will think the problems over the pond are exactly the same here (wrongly) and others will think that there is an issue here which needs addressing whilst recognising the nuance that there isn't really any one individual to blame. Showing support and solidarity is one thing, what to do about it, if anything, is an even more complicated debate. We can all get angry and vandalise public areas and call each other ignorant but I haven't heard any sensible suggestions moving forward or anyone, black or white taking responsibility- and let's be clear there is blame on all sides which has contributed to this.

The difference between USA and UK regarding this, as I see it, is it's very much a race issue in America but more of a class issue here. And while the Government needs, in my opinion, to plan a way forward to sort social injustice, it needs to consider conditions and treatment of all working class people over the years- I accept dealing with the issues affecting black citizens is a reasonable place to start but not at the cost to other races.

Thanks for explaining your views so articulately- it's the best debate I have seen over the past few weeks anywhere. I was interested to see what proposals people who are perceived to be against the BLM movement had, and I appreciate the honesty that there is no clearer objective than within the BLM movement. Crazy times doubtless fuelled by several months isolation, increasing unemployment etc.

Respect to you Mushi. PUP!
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yellowcheesemonkey Posted on 26/06/2020 11:38
Edited On: 26/06/2020 11:39
Mike Wedderburn

"more of a class issue"
I kind of agree with that

I remember when I was living uo in Birmingham, the Steel House Line coppers would pull in anyone and anything that didnt look respectable middle class and give a few digs to make sure the confession rate was high enough to clear up the crime rate.
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Bluestow Posted on 26/06/2020 11:40
Edited On: 26/06/2020 13:42
Mike Wedderburn

Hutch and Muschi, appreciating the conciliatory and calm tone of your posts.

If you want an insight into what’s going on from a different perspective I recommend Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire by Akala. I find his writing a bit aggrandising nevertheless he says a lot of things that provide food for thought. It affects all of us.
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exgaffer Posted on 26/06/2020 12:22

Mike Wedderburn

I agree that a calm tone is needed Bluestow, but that is difficult when people are rioting, pulling down statues, attacking police, and doing so with seeming impunity.

We need a national debate on this, but the media seems completely unable to facilitate that as it comes down so firmly in favour of one side of the argument.

If current behaviour continues, and the authorities and media continue on their current path, there will be a reaction.

The government needs to get a grip, then we can all have an adult debate on all this.

The vast majority of people are reasonable and abhor discrimination of any kind, do we would start from a good place.

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