Home  |  Message Board  |  Fan Pics  |  Fan Polls  |  RSS Feed  |  Top of Thread  |  Login  |  Register
Display By:
Home  |  Message Board  |  Top of Thread  |  Login  |  Register
Display By:

Previous Thread   |  Top Of Board  |  Start New Thread  |   Next Thread
UncleBob Posted on 12/02/2020 14:10
rescued form Ben Nevis
 
These people who get rescued off mountains in the winter should get the bill for being daft bstards. That might deter them.

Bet it cost 100k +
IP: Logged
Konrad_the_Barbarian Posted on 12/02/2020 16:40

rescued form Ben Nevis
Absolutely spot on. What were the thick fckers thinking. Make them pay.[^]
IP: Logged
Harry_x Posted on 12/02/2020 16:58

rescued form Ben Nevis
One thing that might have actually saved their lives is that they had the 'what3words' app on their phone.

It's a pretty cool app that allocates three random words to every 10m2 plot of land in the UK

So if you are stuck up Ben Nevis, in a blizzard, in the dark etc you can phone for help quoting the three words from your app and they know pretty much exactly where you are
IP: Logged
Abel_Tasman Posted on 12/02/2020 17:01

rescued form Ben Nevis
Yes wearing trainers ffs in the winter!!!
IP: Logged
pierrequiroule Posted on 12/02/2020 17:29

rescued form Ben Nevis
Wearing trainers full stop. [smi]
IP: Logged
PhillyMac Posted on 12/02/2020 18:55

rescued form Ben Nevis
I had never heard of 'whatthreewords' until now.

Amazing.
IP: Logged
Foggysfplandiet3 Posted on 12/02/2020 19:32

rescued form Ben Nevis
I thought that bloke who went surfing off Hastings during Storm Ciara was an idiot but this lot are beyond idiocy. Trainers, no crampons, no gear, no map, climbing up The Ben despite repeated weather warnings, risking their rescuers lives. [:(]
IP: Logged
Tryasize11 Posted on 12/02/2020 19:56

rescued form Ben Nevis
Harry X.

That's very useful info...I've often been out in high peaks, Lakes, Snowdonia by myself and wondered how I would let anyone know exactly where I was if any issues.

Assume it does require a phone signal tho?
IP: Logged
UncleBob Posted on 12/02/2020 19:58

rescued form Ben Nevis
I think they could locate you from the phone cell you are registered in.
IP: Logged
Facefuzz Posted on 12/02/2020 20:04

rescued form Ben Nevis
I don't think a phone call would get you within 10m2. Not in the highlands where masts are spread out.

Thanks for letting us know about the app.[pa]
IP: Logged
Chisel Posted on 12/02/2020 20:14

rescued form Ben Nevis
Great app [^]
Hopefully won't need to use it in panic
Cheers Harry
IP: Logged
Halle_Burton Posted on 13/02/2020 08:51
Edited On: 13/02/2020 08:52
rescued form Ben Nevis
Cheers, hopefully wont need it but got it all the same.

Another handy tip is when the emergency services look on your phone who to contact they look for ICE in contacts which stands for "in case of emergency" regarding who to contact first. Its been about for several years and comes in handy for them, info straight from a paramedic.

Oh and back to the OP, absolute idiots who should be fined heavily.
IP: Logged
Marvanelli Posted on 13/02/2020 08:58

rescued form Ben Nevis
Yes that app is brilliant.

Only found out about it a month or so ago.
IP: Logged
WeeGord Posted on 13/02/2020 09:01

rescued form Ben Nevis
I agree that the lads showed absolute stupidity and were completely reckless in what they did.

It frustrates the hell out of me that the taxpayer has to find the rescue of such ridiculously daft people.

However, making them pay the bill opens a massive can of worms - they may otherwise be very healthy people who have this far cost the system very little. How do you compare that to a 60 a day smoker who costs the taxpayer a fortune, do you charge them too?

How about the guy next door who is 10 stone overweight, does he have to pay too?

In principle I agree but in practice I don’t think it’s possible to do so fairly.
IP: Logged
UncleBob Posted on 13/02/2020 09:13

rescued form Ben Nevis
AFAIK if you go skiing in Europe and you need Helicoptering off the mountain - you have to pay or your insurance does if you have it
IP: Logged
Muttley Posted on 13/02/2020 09:13

rescued form Ben Nevis
"...the taxpayer has to find the rescue..."

Do we?

As I understand it, Mountain Rescue, and the RNLI, are charities operated by volunteers and funded by donation. The rescuers themselves said they didn't want these fools fined or punished in any way. Walking on moutains is statistically much safer than playing football.
IP: Logged
UncleBob Posted on 13/02/2020 10:27

rescued form Ben Nevis
I would not have thought climbing Ben Nevis wearing trainers during one of the worst periods of weather in decades was as safe as playing football in the park with the kids on a sunny afternoon in Summer.

Depends what you are comparing.


Its not just this incident though is it. Theres the people sailing single handedly, Cycling through dangerous parts of the world.
Running extreme marathons. Jumping off high buildings. As someone said more about putting other peoples lives at risk other than their own.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 13:31
Edited On: 13/02/2020 13:53
rescued form Ben Nevis
The phone just sending the phone's GPS co-ordinates would work best and cuts out the middle man of the "what three words" app, along with the fact that W3W charge for use, it's not open source like co-ordinates and is different for all languages.

Phones should already have the ability to text out co-ordinates in an emergency, using any of the networks cell masts, like what happens when you ring 999.

Waiting until you're lost, to try and download an app, when you might not have signal from your network is not the best idea in the world, strange how this is catching on though.

You could just go on apple maps, click the blue arrow and click the blue dot, and then you're sorted (it lists the lat/ long). I use this often for work, when I'm out in the field and don't have my GPS unit.

IP: Logged
DybuksChampion Posted on 13/02/2020 13:52

rescued form Ben Nevis
Installed W3W on all the families phones a few months ago when daughter did her duke of edinburgh. Makes sense to install it before you go on the mountain. Narrows your possition down significantly compared to triangulation. Quicker app to open and use than Google maps and it was certainly free whn i downloaded it.
IP: Logged
Anton_Berg Posted on 13/02/2020 13:57

rescued form Ben Nevis
All these services give people a false sense of safety.
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 13:59

rescued form Ben Nevis
"W3W charge for use"

Do they? Looks free to use to me.
IP: Logged
DybuksChampion Posted on 13/02/2020 14:00

rescued form Ben Nevis
The sensible would rather have them than not.
Seat belts, air bags etc have given drivers a false sense of safety but it would be hard to argue for their removal because of the FSOS.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:08

rescued form Ben Nevis
W3W is just using GPS or phone mast triangulation, so why not actually use the GPS raw co-ordinates which are most accurate, and also give the Z axis (if needed).

The W3W app should just narrow the grid down something like the below:
300km x 1000km rough shape of UK = 30 x 100 squares of 10km x 10km = 3,000 words
Then break that 10km x 10km down into squares of 200m x 200m = 50 x 50 = 2,500 words
Then break that into squares of 5m x 5m, = 40 x 40 = 1,600 words

But it doesn't do that, as they're not open source. With how they do it the square adjacent could be three different words.

The only thing I can think of that would make someone use W3W, is that the three words are easier to remember, and I don't think people are taught what co-ordinates are, which is absolutely crazy.

The first 5 digits of a grid ref give a 10 x 10 square. A full grid ref to 1m x 1m is 6 digits for X and Y, as in 450722, 520616 would be the centre circle of the riverside, but if you put anything starting 45072, 52061 then you're in the 10 x 10 square.

So two numbers of 5 digits giving the exact output of the phone if using grid ref, or three words of 5/6 letters that go phone>app>someone elses phone/app>emergency services.
IP: Logged
teesste Posted on 13/02/2020 14:09

rescued form Ben Nevis
I do a lot of trail running so will often be on my own in woods or on the moors.. always have an emergency foil blanket and spare warm layer with me in case of emergency but also have the W3W app downloaded as it definitely helps you get found faster by emergency services. Just give them a ring and tell them the 3 words that appear on the app and they will do the rest!
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:09
Edited On: 13/02/2020 14:13
rescued form Ben Nevis
They charge, as in it's not open source, it can't be built into other software for free and they won't share how they get to the three words, which is dangerous if something goes wrong and they get the wrong square.
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:11
Edited On: 13/02/2020 14:13
rescued form Ben Nevis
"W3W is just using GPS or phone mast triangulation, so why not actually use the GPS raw co-ordinates which are most accurate, and also give the Z axis (if needed)."

A bit like the phonetic alphabet perhaps. Less likely to mis-hear.

I find phone signals very hit or miss in the Scottish mountains. I'd have a lot of other things prepared for emergencies before relying in W3W.
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:17

rescued form Ben Nevis
"They charge"

From their 'Pricing' page: "what3words will always be free for individuals to use on our own site and apps, and there will always be ways to use our business software packages for free"
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:20
Edited On: 13/02/2020 14:21
rescued form Ben Nevis
Yeah, but you could easily come up with a phonetic co-ordinate system and probably get that down to 4 letters x 4 letters, and even if the square was wrong, they would still get extremely close.

It just seems daft to me, to build in something to go:
Plan trip
download app
get family to download app
get lost
User opens App
phone gets co-ordinates from GPS
change to words
come out of app
send to some family member or speak to emergency services
they convert words back to co-ordinates
Helicopter, plane or sat nav can be programmed with co-ordinates

When there could be a simple menu option to:
Text co-ordinates to (pick one): family police, ambulance, search and rescue, fire

Little chance of error and if there is an error, it can get narrowed down easier.
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:24

rescued form Ben Nevis
I'm sure there's better ways but it saved those walkers.

I've just tried to see if it works with Google Maps and it does : you're in a town and trying to find someone on a road that's two miles long. Navigate to the "three words" and find them. Seems good for free to me.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:25

rescued form Ben Nevis
You missed the rest of the post, as in they charge with relation to:
"it's not open source, it can't be built into other software for free and they won't share how they get to the three words, which is dangerous if something goes wrong and they get the wrong square."

So unlike grid refs, co-ordinates and post codes, other apps and the like can use those, but can't use W3W, so if something went wrong with W3W, then you're knackered.


IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:26
Edited On: 13/02/2020 14:29
rescued form Ben Nevis
I'd use grid references then so no problem. I can see the simplicity for most people who can't use a map, let alone understand grid references.

I've just tried it with Google Maps which is also free but not open source. The GPS firmware on my phone is free to use but not open source.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:36

rescued form Ben Nevis
Haha, it does work, but it's like saying feet and inches work, compared to the metric system, going down to mm level. The latter is just better and more accurate.

There's been a better and more accurate system to use for 100's of years, this is a step backwards. The problem is people don't know how to use the better system, through lack of education.

Search and rescue are not plugging those three words into their helicopter though, I assure you of that.



IP: Logged
Muttley Posted on 13/02/2020 14:39

rescued form Ben Nevis
How does it work with no phone signal?

Even the best UK geographic coverage (EE I believe) is well short of 100%.
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:43

rescued form Ben Nevis
The Emergency Services do, including the coastguard, so I guess 999 would transfer the 'true' co-ordinates appropriately - I guess they need to convert OS grid to UTM (or the other way) quite often. I'm sure magnetic declination is a bigger problem with people providing OS coordinates.

Not sure how much you know about W3W but the 2D line map does not coincide with the 'google earth' picture. Not sure why this should be.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:47

rescued form Ben Nevis
You're missing my point about what part is open source....

Anyone in the UK can use a grid ref, and anyone in the world can use GPS co-ordinates, as it's only done one way. So you can use that system for anything you're developing. Overlay the co-ordinates onto anything, and they will be in the right place, and each digit or decimal will narrow the search are down.

Ask W3W how they calculate how each area is a given word, and they won't share the code, and there's no way for an outsider to narrow the search area down, given any words.

You could have a situation where the search and rescue team out on foot or in the air don't have a W3W compatible device and then they lose touch with base? What happens then?

IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:48

rescued form Ben Nevis
"How does it work with no phone signal?"

The app works fine with no signal . . . except you can't tell anyone the three words!
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 14:55

rescued form Ben Nevis
"You could have a situation where the search and rescue team out on foot or in the air don't have a W3W compatible device and then they lose touch with base? What happens then?"

Do rescue services use OS or UTM? They presumably have to translate what they've 'heard' to one of those before they start. In most cases "We're lost on Ben Nevis" is their navigational mark to route plan.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 15:12

rescued form Ben Nevis
Yeah, the ES are deffo converting W3W to co-ordinates for search and rescue (as everything relies on the grid/ co-ordinates), but ES are obviously well aware of the app and the cops probably have it on their phones I bet.

I'm not saying it's bad, as it isn't but there's better ways that already existed.

I would rather people have W3W than nothing mind!
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 15:15

rescued form Ben Nevis
Bear,

Aircraft and walking GPS/ phone GPS/ sat nav GPS is shown in UTM, rather than grid ref. There's ways to find it, but most don't know it's there (which is the big problem I suppose).

I'm more familiar with grid ref as that's how my work GPS is set up, as it needs to be that way to import co-ordinates into Autocad and how we put our drawings together etc.
IP: Logged
bear66 Posted on 13/02/2020 15:24

rescued form Ben Nevis
I've just tried Google Maps and Google Earth with my phone sat nav.

With Google Maps it's showing about 10m North of where I am.

With Google Earth it's showing 6m East.

These are similar to the discrepancies I'm seeing on map versus satellite on W3W. Is this normal for this discrepancy? Do you have a more accurate GPS for your work compared with a phone GPS?
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 17:31
Edited On: 13/02/2020 17:33
rescued form Ben Nevis
Yeah, there's varying grades of GPS. Well it's actually GNSS, as it's all satellites from a lot of nations, so using Galileo, Glonas etc. GPS is just what the Americans own, and lease out, but as it was the first one, it's what most call people refer to GNSS as.

Phones and cars are 5-10m accuracy, at best, even with loads of satellites

Then there's SBAS, which is about 0.4m accuracy which uses a correction signal.

Then there's Network RTK, which is what you see the survey guys in the road using, this is about 5-10mm accuracy and uses radio correction, this costs about £1,000 a year for the licence. This is what I have.

Then there's military grade GPS, licenced through the Americans with secret codes, and this is how our bombs are accurate enough to hit a manhole, along with laser guidance.

The GPS/ GNSS that the public are mainly using, has an error built into it, or the error is not corrected and this is what stops other dodgy countries from using GPS against us and America.

That might not all be exactly correct now mind, was years since I studied GPS in the RAF and my knowledge of civilian isn't what it was. It still seems that way though, from what we see in the field.
IP: Logged
DybuksChampion Posted on 13/02/2020 17:46

rescued form Ben Nevis
Wev - I think the point is that a lot of people would struggle with grid references and would probably panic at being asked them.

If the emergency services can get people to download this app and the end consumer knows all they have to do is be able to read three words then they are more likely to do so.

It's not really aimed at you.

All that said I like your idea of an app that gets your grid reference and messages it automatically to the emergency services. A mobile SOS signal. You should develop that into an app. I'd stick it on all my families phones [^]
IP: Logged
Linthorpe_Exile Posted on 13/02/2020 17:49

rescued form Ben Nevis
A good discussion with some interesting angles covered ....

Link: w3w thoughts
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 18:09

rescued form Ben Nevis
Aye Dybuks, I know, but it's because most of the UK doesn't know what a co-ordinate is, as it's not teached. This app is catering for dumbing down.

Haha, I know what you mean, as I was writing the message, I was thinking "I'm onto something here", but then the problem is that I think people would wrongly think that W3W was more accurate somehow and it would be difficult to get people to understand how it never could be.

Everyone seems to know about W3W now, these real world stories are good marketing for it.
IP: Logged
Wev1 Posted on 13/02/2020 18:14

rescued form Ben Nevis
Interesting post linthorpe, a lot of the points in it are obvious for someone with knowledge of co-ordinates and how they're standardised for the world. What I didn't realise is it seems from that that W3W are quite vicious, sneaky and peddling it out as something it's not.
IP: Logged
gramercy Posted on 13/02/2020 19:42

rescued form Ben Nevis
“How do you compare that to a 60 a day smoker who costs the taxpayer a fortune, do you charge them too”

The 60 a day smoker, over the course of their “hobby” will most certainly have been charged. Around £24 a day in tax directly from the purchase of cigarettes at current prices.

Although this has got me thinking, maybe we can drum up some extra revenue to cover the cost of looking after the rest of us by allowing the old F1 style tobacco sponsorship back on the side of ambulances.......”St Johns Player Special” would be a nice livery [:P][:D]
IP: Logged
br14 Posted on 14/02/2020 04:14
Edited On: 14/02/2020 04:15
rescued form Ben Nevis
Accuracy depends on a variety of factors including the number of satellites in proximity to your location, the aerial in your phone etc.

If you have an Android phone there are options to improve the accuracy, but they drain the battery.

There's an app called GPS Essentials that can help if you're interested in improving the accuracy.

In theory it should be possible to get down to 1 metre accuracy.

Even if GPS is off, you can get a general location (within 1500 metres?) by triangulating off the cell towers you're connected to, and Google made news a while back because they were capturing wi-fi information as their street view vehicles drove around. Not that it would help at the top of Ben Nevis.

It's a long time since I was at the top of Ben Nevis but isn't there a XXXXXX great drop on one side of the mountain? Not the place to be in poor visibility.
IP: Logged
Previous Thread  |  Start New Thread  |  Top Of Board  |  Top Of Thread  |  Next Thread



Home  |Message Board  |  Top of Board  |  Login  |  Register


Copyright © 2008 to 2020 Fansonline.net Ltd

FansOnline.net Ltd
Unit 7
Brentnall Center
Gilkes Street
Middlesbrough
Cleveland
TS1 5AP
Fansonline Home | About Fansonline | Contact Fansonline | Advertise On Fansonline | Privacy Policy | TOS
10.0.166.103