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Baggins Posted on 14/01/2020 11:50
Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
 
Wonder how this will escalate things, could be time to get the popcorn out.

This Scottish independence thing has the potential to become more tedious and longwinded than Brexit.

Link: Letter
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bear66 Posted on 14/01/2020 11:55

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Is a statement that a vote is once in a generation a promise when you have no power to implement such a vote in the short term or long term? More like a statement that those people down south may not give us another chance. Looks like they were right.
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American_Mary Posted on 14/01/2020 12:08

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
One of the key promises of the Independence Referendum was that by remaining part of the UK Scotland would retain access to the EU, in the Brexit vote that followed Scotland voted to remain 62% to 38%, at the time of the 2014 referendum Brexit was not on the cards and retention of EU access was very much sold as a benefit to the people of Scotland.

For me given the parameters have changed regarding the EU surely it’s fair to give the people of Scotland an
opportunity to have a second referendum, the Brexit campaign was all about ‘taking back control’ and the ‘will of the people’ but that doesn’t stack up when you’re denying the right of Scotland to vote on the current situation. The same applies to Wales and Northern Ireland and of course any border issues between the Republic and Ulster could be replicated between Scotland and England should the Scots deem independence a good idea and can retain or apply for EU membership.
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Muttley Posted on 14/01/2020 12:16

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
What kind of tool signs a letter of state "Boris" [|)]
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Old-boot Posted on 14/01/2020 12:21

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
You're right.....

He should have signed it "Michael"......or "Anthony".......or "Steven"!!![xx(]
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fosm Posted on 14/01/2020 12:24

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
If it wasn't Brexit it would be some other justification for having another referendum. Granted Brexit is a significant one as it happens. However, the same still stands, the 'its a once in a generation' slogan didn't (to my recollection have any caveats attached.
The fact is, the SNP (and Salmond in particular) made a pigs ear of their opportunity. No significant policies were announced, two of the 3 tv debates were mostly taken up by which currency were the Scots going to use. Salmond seemed to me to be happy running down the clock on these debates on this not overly significant topic leaving little time to debate anything else. The tactic boiled down primarily to the'Braveheart' approach, even giving the vote to 16 year old. Well it failed dramatically, hence why Salmon had no option to resign soon after. What should also be remembered is Scotland didn't vote as a country against Brexit. That's not how these referendums work. It would be a bit like saying a particular county voted against Brexit so should have the opportunity to be independent.
As I said, if it wasn't Brexit, Nicola would find another reason for justifying a second referendum. Her and Salmond are hell bent on it. Its high time she got on with her other business and moved on.
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Nero Posted on 14/01/2020 12:28

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
The SNP continue to blind many in Scotland of their failings by banging on about Independence constantly. As it happens, I know plenty of Scots who wanted out of the EU.
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UpTheBoro70 Posted on 14/01/2020 12:30

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Scotland voted to stay in the uk already. Cant stand sturgeon. How a about a independent northern england like northern ireland? Thatll put cat amongst the pigeons and will stir alot of passion I reckon as much as the scots
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bear66 Posted on 14/01/2020 12:35

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
So you want a second North East devolution referendum? After the people voted comprehensively against it last time?
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FatCat Posted on 14/01/2020 12:42

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
I don’t buy Sturgeons “Scotland voted to remain....” it was never a regional referendum but for the whole of the UK. Any referendum for Scotland would slow down the process and lead to further stagnation. We should leave and if they still insist on a Scottish referendum down the line give them one and then they can rejoin should they vote that way.

She knew the rules of the referendum - if she had concerns she should have raised them up front.
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Ironops Posted on 14/01/2020 12:45

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
'How a about a independent northern england'

As Muttley says, you already had one - changed your mind?

[:o)]
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bear66 Posted on 14/01/2020 12:49

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Didn't the SNP reject a referendum in the first place? And the SNP manifesto in May 2016 said they should have the right to another referendum if there was a vote to leave?

I think that suggests there were more than concerns.
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br14 Posted on 14/01/2020 12:53

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
She may have a large majority of Scottish MP's but she did not win a majority of voters.

The vote was split three or four ways in most Scots constituencies.

So even with Brexit it appears a referendum would end up much the same as at present.

Quebec did the same thing when it had a referendum on leaving Canada. Over the next few years they used the closeness of the vote to leverage more concessions out of central government.

I imagine Sturgeon is angling for the devolution of additional power as the UK leaves the EU and competencies currently managed by the EU return to UK control. Demanding another referendum is just a negotiating ploy. She knows Johnson has no need to offer a referendum.
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bear66 Posted on 14/01/2020 13:03

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
That is a good argument, but one that says we shouldn't be going ahead with Brexit with a minority of voters voting for Brexit supporting parties.

I don't think she'd win a referendum but she has legitimacy to call for one because of a FPTP democracy.
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Hitachi Posted on 14/01/2020 13:10

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
It's a very well written and polite way of telling We Jimmy Krankie to do one. No doubt we will be subjected to fatty Blackford ranting in the HoC,with every other word Scoatlaaaaaaand!!! Oh dear what a pity never mind.[:D]
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Baggins Posted on 14/01/2020 13:53

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Surprised they were straight in with the referendum talk with the impending Salmond legal issues, during which it's likely Sturgeon will be required to appear in court. Some talk this was the main driver behind them agreeing to the December election, since the negative fall out from Salmond could be disastrous.
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sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 14/01/2020 14:12

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
The idea of another referendum so soon after the previous one is ludicrous. You can't just have a constant state of flux, you need some stability.

It's about time people started accepting democratic votes. I am a labour supporter and a huge Corbyn supporter. We lost the election. It was a big loss and Corbyn cannot continue. I accept this because I am an adult and realise that people have different opinions to me
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rumrunner Posted on 14/01/2020 16:05

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
If the Scots wanted another referendum, then they should be granted one.
However no matter what the SNP say that they speak for the people of Scotland, they don't!!
they speak for the nationalists of Scotland. There is no evidence that a majority of Scots want another divisive referendum in fact quite the opposite
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TheFactory Posted on 14/01/2020 16:16

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
"If the Scots wanted another referendum, then they should be granted one."

What sort of indicator would be needed to make this apparent? SNP think the GE results is enough. The Scottish Parliament elections are next year and are likely to support SNP, which they will use as a "mandate" to push for IndyRef2. Opinion polling suggests support for remaining, but is quite tight and I think will begin to sway once Brexit occurs.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 14/01/2020 16:26
Edited On: 14/01/2020 16:37
Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Howcome pre general election people stated that Brexit or a Boris victory would lead to the break up of the union.

He stated all along they would not get another referendum and now the same people are stating they should be allowed one (and break up the union possibly)

Then they would blame the government for giving them a referendum no doubt
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rumrunner Posted on 14/01/2020 16:36

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
What sort of indicator would be needed to make this apparent?
It was generally accepted and indicated by the SNP when the opinion pools show a consistent level of support for independence at 60%
I think she wanted the 2020 vote before it becomes obvious that Brexit will be like the Millennium bug , full of doom mongers before hand when in fact we will notice very little
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Lottowyn Posted on 14/01/2020 17:09
Edited On: 14/01/2020 17:11
Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
My friends in Scotland all agree that it would be a disaster for their country to leave the U.K., but having said that there are several who would like Sturgeon to be given her Referendum to prove to her that she is flogging a dead horse in pursuing this lost cause.

The Scots do not want to lose their "benefits" from the rest of the UK. They like their free prescriptions, lack of University Fees for Scots and their employment on Defence Shipbuilding. And they certainly do not want to be a minion in the EU using the Euro.

I really believe that BJ is right but perhaps Sturgeon should get her vote just to silence her whining for good.
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Trug Posted on 14/01/2020 17:13

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
"However, the same still stands, the 'its a once in a generation' slogan didn't (to my recollection have any caveats attached."

fosm- it did- The caveat was "If there is significant change."
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rumrunner Posted on 14/01/2020 17:46

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
I work amongst the Scots, I sensed a surge for independence before the 2014 and witnessed the massive disappointment about the result even No votors felt sad , that led to a mass surge in SNP membership
I have not sensed the fervour of independence since especially recently
what we can expect is constant grievance politics fro the SNP using language such as they are being "held prisoner " in the union
It could get nasty
Oh and by the way when then say Westminster they really mean England , the majority of the Snat cyber warriors hate the English
maybe one day we`ll take offence and start giving it back
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Torino Posted on 14/01/2020 17:58

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
If there is a second referendum and the independence vote wins narrowly, will Sturgeon be consistent and call for a third confirmatory one just before it happens ?[8)]
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Greenandblack Posted on 14/01/2020 17:58

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
***Oh and by the way when then say Westminster they really mean England***

Oh we really don't. People in the north east of England really should understand how frustrating it is to see Westminster continually subverting what is best for the UK to what is best for the south east of England.
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Alan_Breck Posted on 14/01/2020 18:27
Edited On: 14/01/2020 18:28
Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Boris, please sanction IndyRef2 and hopefully the SNP will win the vote and the whingeing Jocks will búgger off and give us peace. Hadrian's Wall wasn't built for nothing.

#UTB
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TheFactory Posted on 14/01/2020 18:42

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
"I really believe that BJ is right but perhaps Sturgeon should get her vote just to silence her whining for good."

Losing another referendum will merely be seen as a minor setback in their desire for independence.
The only way to silence the nationalists is if the Scottish people outright reject the SNP, which I don't see happening any time soon.
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American_Mary Posted on 14/01/2020 19:17

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
I would suggest a second referendum defeat would mean a change of policy regarding independence for the SNP, through devolution of power rather than full independence, I wonder if Scottish Parliament could instigate a popular vote on whether Scotland wanted a a second referendum, then use the same ‘will of the people’ argument that Johnson himself has used to try and force the issue.

The SNP are not going to give up on Independence without a 2IR in my opinion and as mentioned above the caveat of significant change would appear to have been met by withdrawal from the EU which was a cornerstone of the Better Together campaign.
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Starbuck Posted on 14/01/2020 23:23

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
The SNP's reason for existence is to obtain Independence
Once it is gained they disappear in same way UKIP, Brexit Party and Farage are now irrelevant
Until they get Independence they will always be around and always vocal and always getting high percentage of votes. Get used to it, its not going away even if there are 10 No votes
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TheFactory Posted on 15/01/2020 00:02

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Not sure I agree with that, Starbuck.
UKIP, for the most part, were a single issue party. The Brexit Party most certainly were. SNP are in governance in Scotland and have more about them than simply banging the drum for independence.
An independent Scotland would have a place for a civic nationalist party like SNP. I don't see them simply disappearing.
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Baggins Posted on 15/01/2020 07:35

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Possibly the people of Scotland, sorry those complaining about Westminster (and the English in general, they don't differentiate) should realise they have it better, much better than a lot of other areas in the UK. If they did some proper research there are holes and flaws in the independence argument and it's a bigger leap of faith than Brexit, which is allegedly the scariest and most irresponsible thing citizens of the UK could have done.

In my humble opinion the SNP should be fighting for the good of the whole UK, same as the other political parties, same as the UK should have done in the EU regarding reforms.

The SNP have a uniquely and disproportionately strong position in parliament, they should use it for positive things instead of whining constantly about something that they have not mapped out correctly, or have not demonstrated they can actually execute successfully. Shouty jingoism only gets you so far, at some point you have to do real work.
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Torino Posted on 15/01/2020 10:10

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
They benefit from both our ridiculous first past the post system and the fact that the nationalist/independence vote is on a whole unified behind them. They got 46% of the vote in the last Scottish Parliament elections which sounds impressive, until you realise it was on a 55% turnout, they have the support of about 1/4 of eligible Scottish voters
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bear66 Posted on 15/01/2020 10:31

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
The Tories have support of 29% of eligible UK voters. Not much more.

Not all SNP voters would vote to leave the UK, but there are voters from other parties that would (see Scottish Labour Leader yesterday).

I don't think there would be anywhere near 50% to leave though. Brexit will be double edged - won a lot towards leaving the UK but lost some who realise the issues unpickling centuries, as opposed to decades, of history.
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Baggins Posted on 15/01/2020 12:08

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
Can you unpickle something [:D]

I would like to see the Unionists step up a little in Scotland, and actually state what is beneficial about the union, in positive terms, rather than the race to the bottom politics that the referendums have attracted to date.
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bear66 Posted on 15/01/2020 12:42

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
[:D] No, that is the Brexit conundrum.
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Torino Posted on 15/01/2020 12:52

Letter from the PM to Sturgeon
“The Tories have support of 29% of eligible UK voters. Not much more.“

The whole system needs binning and replaced with something more fit for the 21st century
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