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1finny Posted on 12/01/2020 11:24
Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
 
There seems to be a lot of unfinished business here.
The full report wonít be published (despite the authorís recommendation) but clubs are allowed to go and read it.
The punishment was severe - it must have been serious.
Should they strip them of their titles?
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Lottowyn Posted on 12/01/2020 11:34

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
The rugby authorities must have believed that the offences were serious to take such action against a top club, but then,is the punishment so punitive?
Even if Saracens go down, they will win promotion immediately - just look at Newcastle this season.
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1finny Posted on 12/01/2020 12:13

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
All sorts of rumours going around - only way to stop them is to publish the report.

Assuming Exeter have played by the rules (and the indications are that they have) I would be looking to strip Sarries of their titles and retrospectively award them to Exeter. It would be small justice.

I watched the Sarries/Exeter game the other week - it was clearly more than a game of Rugby between the top two sides. Exeter were magnificent
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Anton_Berg Posted on 12/01/2020 12:23

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
How do you erase a name from a trophy?

Seriously though, compared with football's FFP they aren't messing around. And the benefit of the salary cap in promoting open competition is plain to see.
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1finny Posted on 12/01/2020 12:59

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Iím using Lance Armstrong as the example, I guess.

Just seems so unfair on Exeter - there is no getting away from it, this was serious cheating.
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Abel_Tasman Posted on 12/01/2020 13:10

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I canít equate what Armstrong did with the Sarries infringements.

Personally I think the arbitrary salary cap is a joke. The new cap in French rugby effectively dwarfs that of the Premiership.

The LNR have set the cap at Ä11.3 million euro per season, or roughly 10 million pounds sterling. Spread over a squad of 35, that works out at an average of Ä322,000 per player.

43% higher than in England.
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1finny Posted on 12/01/2020 13:57

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
There is something about a salary cap I like.
Itís difficult if national RFUs have different rules though.

No idea how we could transfer it to footy [?]
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Abel_Tasman Posted on 12/01/2020 14:22

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Unless the whole of UEFA and FIFA adopt it you canít. It would be a potential restraint of trade and competition laws.
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CrazyL Posted on 12/01/2020 14:44

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Rumour is that if Newcastle are promoted, as seems likely, then the top division will be ring fenced, with nobody going down, and relegation abolished.
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1finny Posted on 12/01/2020 14:55

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I heard that
Really awful - for the rest
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Nero Posted on 12/01/2020 15:08

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Saracens are not the only one. A few years ago more than one club were suspected so the RFU didn't punish.

Rugby makes it hard for itself by still playing during the Six Nations. Clubs like Saracens lose absolutely World Class players for 6 games.

That said. They were very wrong and correctly punished. I don't see it as the Quins Blood gate Scandal though. That was real cheating.
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/01/2020 11:02

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
And it's all kicking off today. Cheats never prosper.
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Nero Posted on 17/01/2020 11:39

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Looks like Saracens will be relegated one way or the other. I wonder how many players will stick around for that.
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Small_town Posted on 17/01/2020 11:50

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
The initial punishment seemed fair. It was clear that the team with the largest squad and the highest number of top class/international players was breaking the rules quite badly. They certainly aren't the only ones though, even we got caught a few years ago.

This further relegation threat seems harsh. You can't just expect a massive organisation like Saracens to entirely change it's principle staff or alter their wages. There should be some sort of grace period to allow them to get their house in order. Especially as Nigel Wray has gone. He's effectively fell on his sword, to punish sarrries further would punish the new regime before they've had a chance to fix things.

As for taking the trophies off them? That's an interesting debate. If I was a chiefs fan I'd be screaming for it as they have the most to gain. Actaully it's the chiefs players I feel sorry for. A rugby career is short and brutal and not well paid compared to other sports. It would help players monetise their careers after retirement if they can put "2 time premiership champion" after their names. I think, however, the best thing to do is have the history books show their achievements with an asterisk to acknowledge they were breaking salary cap rules at the time.

Also ring fencing the Premiership will be a terrible idea.
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Nero Posted on 17/01/2020 12:32

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Saracens won the double last season fair. Performances on the pitch were outstanding when they needed to be.

As I mentioned earlier. It's not like the Harlequins case a few years ago. They actually cheated during a game. Still got beat mind.
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Small_town Posted on 17/01/2020 12:43

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
No itís nothing like the quins incident. That was isolated to a single match not consistently cheating over the course of 3 years
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Nero Posted on 17/01/2020 12:47

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
As stated. They are not the only ones. A few clubs have been at it. Saracens were caught and punished.

This is not like the Juventus scandal a few years ago. They correctly had titles taken away. Saracens didn't cheat on the pitch and their players deserve what they have won.
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Small_town Posted on 17/01/2020 12:49

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Do they deserve what they have won though? If they had an unfair advantage by being able to play along at better team mates because the team was paying over the law for a huge and talented squad?
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Nero Posted on 17/01/2020 12:53

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
They absolutely deserve what they've won. They were outstanding against Leinster last May. I was actually hoping Exeter won the Premiership Final but in the end Saracens deserved it.

Try telling the players your hard work didn't deserve 3 European titles in 4 years.
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/01/2020 13:00

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Boot on the other foot. Try telling Exeter Series didn't cheat to beat them.
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Small_town Posted on 17/01/2020 13:00

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Thatís not the point. And yes they have played excellent. No denying that. My point is they have more world class players in the squad, because they cheated, so you would expect them to play better.
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1finny Posted on 17/01/2020 13:26
Edited On: 17/01/2020 14:54
Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
No doubt they were an exceptional team
That is because they paid for the best players - illegally.
There are rumours about others - nothing proven yet.

Its very unfair on Exeter and Iím still in the strip them of the titles and award them to Exeter camp.

Reports today suggesting they are still operating outside the salary cap - further punishment a possibility.
Absolute barstewards
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Zoophonic Posted on 17/01/2020 15:39

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
One of the issues any salary cap has when you try and implement it is regional differences not only in pay but in quality of life and cost of living for the players. Sale v Saracens v Exeter. Three very different areas.

Iím not saying Saracens havenít broken rules. They have. But Iím sure they would have something to say about favouritism a salary cap brings to teams away from the capital.
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Nero Posted on 17/01/2020 15:51

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
It would not be correct to strip them of titles I think. They've been punished and will be relegated by the looks of it.

As mentioned to. This is not the first time the cap has been broken. Robert Kitson in the Guardian alluded to it the other week. The only difference then was a few clubs were involved.

English rugby doesn't do itself favours by keeping the cap well below France and continuing to play during the Six Nations.

Clubs like Saracens and Leicester supply loads of players to the national team. That puts them at disadvantage immediately. Especially given Exeter don't supply as many.

English club rugby has struggled in European competition for quite a few years. Fans should be happy that Saracens with lots of English players have been successful. That has certainly helped England.
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Small_town Posted on 17/01/2020 17:46

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Even if it's illegal?

The cap is there for a reason, to try and keep teams economically viable. And also to try and promote competition.
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Kevo4 Posted on 17/01/2020 17:51

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Saracens wonít be relegated - even with the 35 point deduction
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CrazyL Posted on 17/01/2020 18:39

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
They have already effectively admitted that they are in breach again and will accept another 35 point deduction and certain relegation.
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Small_town Posted on 17/01/2020 18:47

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Kevo: the initial 35 point deduction, no, they would always survive with that. If they get a further 35 though... not so sure. That's tough
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Zoophonic Posted on 17/01/2020 18:49

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Not so sure? If they have a 70 point deduction - definitely.
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Kevo4 Posted on 17/01/2020 20:18

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I didnít know about another possible 35 point deduction, thatís incredibly severe
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anterimus Posted on 18/01/2020 19:43

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Confirmed that they will be relegated at the end of the season. At least 9 England players currently, are looking at championship rugby next season and no European cup for sarries even if they win it this year.. as a club, you sign up to the rules, break then and be punished.....let's see what happens in football with Derby Hmmmmm
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Nero Posted on 18/01/2020 19:57

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
It's going to be interesting to see what all the English players do. I can't see them leaving unless told by the club.

For other clubs it's not as simple as offering contracts. Many clubs decide their budget at the start of the year. So most will know their limit right now. For that reason, it will be difficult for any to sign Owen Farrell for example.
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ThePrisoner Posted on 18/01/2020 19:58

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
"They absolutely deserve what they've won. They were outstanding against Leinster last May. I was actually hoping Exeter won the Premiership Final but in the end Saracens deserved it."

That is the sort of idiotic comment that allows cheats to flourish. They deserve to win a competition whose rules they have broken! All you are interested in is how entertaining they were without a thought or clue as to how they were able to field the players they did. You probably think Sevco Rangers got a bum deal s well.
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BillyBill Posted on 18/01/2020 20:00

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
The whole premise of the English league is that the teams are there to support the national team. Yes it's a competition and as such it need to be regulated to ensur6that teams develop talent and font just buy in as French league do. Sarries should have held their hands up and would have probably survived on that basis but Neil wray is an arrogant ### so didn't and now they will be dismantled.
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Nero Posted on 18/01/2020 20:00

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Prisoner - who do you think you are calling people idiots? Do you know me personally?

Besides; the Champions Cup win is outside the Premiership remit. So what rule was broken?
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ThePenguin Posted on 18/01/2020 20:15

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
So where do Premiership Rugby go now regarding salary caps?

If the caps make the league uncompetitive with those in France and if the only English side actually capable of competing for the Champions Cup is the team in breach of those salary caps, surely the PR realise there needs to be a review of these restrictions. And if they change them, surely leaves Saracens seething.
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 18/01/2020 20:27

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
It seems Series had a choice. Accept relegation or allow PR full access to their accounts. They took the former option. It just shows how bad the books must be.
All but one of the PR teams are running at a loss. Therefore increasing the cap is not an option.
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CrazyL Posted on 18/01/2020 21:32
Edited On: 18/01/2020 21:33
Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
It might be because the battle for tv rights is warming up and the domestic game is likely to get a huge injection of cash in the next 5 years. This is why there is a strong appetite for ring fencing the top league. Sarries will come back up, nobody will be relegated, the salary cap will increase. The RFU is making a fortune and, if anything, itís a shorter and much riskier career than football. Players like Farrell, Itoje et al are household names generating huge income for the game and understandably want their cut of the extra millions.
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ThePrisoner Posted on 18/01/2020 21:49

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
"Prisoner - who do you think you are calling people idiots? Do you know me personally?"

Not intereste in who you are, just the idiotic comment.

"Besides; the Champions Cup win is outside the Premiership remit. So what rule was broken?"

Are clubs allowed to field players not employed by them in Champions Cup fixtures?
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Holgatewall Posted on 18/01/2020 22:18

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Could have massive implications for the national team.

As far as I can see it the top players are not employed by the club but are paid by a subsidiary company owned by the owner of the club.

Surely this is covering up how the club is investing in talent and paying its top performers.

I can understand other clubs like Exeter being not pleased.

I think it would be little like Stoke City having their playing pool boosted by players brought in by 365.
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Nero Posted on 18/01/2020 23:13
Edited On: 18/01/2020 23:14
Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Prisoner - Tell you what. Let's meet up somewhere and see if you stick to that statement you c*nt.
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Small_town Posted on 18/01/2020 23:23

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I honestly didnít expect them to get relegated! I think itís telling they were offered to open their books to the RFU or get relegated and they chose relegation. They must have SERIOUSLY cooked those books! Massive implications for England too though. Nothing stopping England picking championship players but will they still be sharp playing against Hartpury and Bedford? If they do leave sarries where will they go? No premiership clubs can afford them (kind of the point of the salary cap) and if they go abroad they wonít be eligible for England.

In better news: the first domestic match they play will be next weeks London derby. As a quins season ticket holder boy am I looking forward to that!! I mean, theyíll probably smash us but theyíll still be about 70 points behind us !!!
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Holgatewall Posted on 18/01/2020 23:36

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Small town i have been to the Stoop several times when West Hartlepool were in the first division.

I think the ground gas improvrd a lot since then.
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1finny Posted on 23/01/2020 14:47

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Getting a bit messy with the Ďleakedí report.
The bit which says the players canít be blamed for the breach of salary cap just seems laughable.

Link: Itoje on the take
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Small_town Posted on 23/01/2020 14:59

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Holgate: quite a bit although we are in the cheap seats in the north stand. a temporary stand with a 10 year shelf life. That has been there for 16 years!

The main worry for me is do I wear a fez with a. A load of money strapped to it or b. Celery on it (a
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Johnny_X Posted on 23/01/2020 17:41

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
The big surprise to was that Owen Farrell, the highest paid british player anywhere, was only on 14-15k a week. We probably have 10 players on that or more. It goes to show there isn't much money in club rugby.
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Small_town Posted on 23/01/2020 18:05

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Yeah it's a problem faced by all right players. People think their wages aren't far off footballers. They really really are though. Don't get paid anywhere near as much
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CrazyL Posted on 23/01/2020 18:38

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
The problem is that the money is there, and itís going to increase with tv deals in the next few years. Players like Farrell and Itoje are right at the top of the world game and have massive commercial potential. And yet they are, as pointed out above, earning salaries that a relatively unknown premiership squad player wouldnít even get out of bed for. The game is at a tipping point regarding the salary cap in England, as it is with the need to ring fence the top league.
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Johnny_X Posted on 23/01/2020 18:57

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Just not the money there. Deal for aviva championship was around 200 million for 6 years. Championship football deal 600 million plus overseas deals and money clubs receive from the premiership. Also average crowds for the rugby are mostly below 10 thousand. The clubs are subsidised by the national teams. Cricket has a similar problem. The cap is a sensible thing.
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bungydinsdale Posted on 23/01/2020 19:27

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
'Saracens won the double last season fair. Performances on the pitch were outstanding when they needed to be.'
Balderdash that statement.
if they hadn't been cheating off the pitch they wouldn't have been able to afford to have all those expensive players on the pitch.
So if they had played by the rules they woulnd't have had anything like as good a squad in the first place.
And there are precedents for taking away titles.
The NRL in Australia took two (or was it 3) of Melbourne Storm for salary cap breaches over a number of years.
I like that Sarries have been relegated, but if they want to stop others doing it in the future they need to take away the titles.
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exeterboro Posted on 23/01/2020 20:39

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
It be interesting to see what happens in the Champions Cup, they stand a very real chance of winning it, I know it's not broken any European rules but it would be a PR disaster for European rugby.
I look out for Chiefs results and have had some very enjoyable afternoons in the pub watching them over the last few years, they fell apart against Saracens in the final last year after looking like they had won it, this scandal might give them that extra edge again, earlier in the season they looked like they were feeling sorry for themselves.
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Small_town Posted on 23/01/2020 20:51

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Jonny X is right. As much as I love the game it just pales financially compared to football. I believe that Exeter are the only team in the premiership actually making a profit. We are the second biggest supported team in the Premiership and even then our average attendance is only a bit over 15000. That itself is very odd, given our stadium holds less than that but we have a regular game at Twickenham that pulls nearly 80000 in every Christmas. Apart form that "big game" there just isn't the draw. Plus my season ticket is only £200 and that's for all premiership, cup, shield (reserves), European (pool games only) and all womens games. Top VFM compared to football!
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uberweiss Posted on 24/01/2020 10:23

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Thought you were on about the guy from Gladiators
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 24/01/2020 11:05

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
CVC, an investment firm bought shares in the English Premier League as well as the Pro14. There is talk about a combined British and Irish league. Perhaps done on a conference basis.
I very much doubt they would ring fence the EPL without Sarries.
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Small_town Posted on 24/01/2020 12:00

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I hope they dont ring fence it at all
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 24/01/2020 12:10

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Agreed but they may.
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1finny Posted on 24/01/2020 16:50

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I thought all the prem teams were going for a closed division - no relegation and no promotion.
I bet the appetite for that has gone

I wasnít a fan of the original idea but there would be a sense of karma if they cracked on with it.
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CrazyL Posted on 24/01/2020 17:00

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
They wonít ring fence until Saracens come back up. No way. As long as Newcastle go up they will close relegation from next season and go to a13 team league in 2021 when the TV deal is due to renew. Might even end up a British and Irish league with two pools of 12 or some such.
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Abel_Tasman Posted on 24/01/2020 22:11

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Brian Moore in Twitter has summed up the report in Saracens very well

Link: That Report
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Small_town Posted on 26/01/2020 17:38

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Well that was one of the most pleasant matches Iíve ever been to, despite the weather.

Sarries will struggle in the championship if they play like that...

Not a great return on investment for a squad a million pounds over the salary cap!
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CrazyL Posted on 26/01/2020 17:53

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Great result for Quins. I would suggest though that the 23 Sarries fielded today would be comfortably within the salary cap?
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Small_town Posted on 26/01/2020 18:26

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
You can say whatever you like it was. A massive win. In fact their biggest defeat in 4 years. So worst defeat since they started cheating
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Small_town Posted on 27/01/2020 10:19

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
Also, there was, for the first time I can recall at an English rugby game, genuine anger there. Sarries got (mildly) booed when they came on the pitch and when they scored both their tries. Also a sarries fan in our stand stood up to defend them and she was shouted down, and with football style abuse and not the usual rugby banter (although I did helpfully give her directions to London Scottish for next season)

Also the quins players were much more pumped up than I can remember in a long time, which probably accounts for the 19 unanswered points in the first quarter. There is genuine anger about this. Which is worrying because I suspect, they won't be the only team to have broken the law, only the most blatant.
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1finny Posted on 27/01/2020 13:45

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
I'm delighted there is anger - there ought to be. They are frickin cheats.

I keep hearing 'they may not be alone' - until another club is charged it is just rumour.
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Small_town Posted on 27/01/2020 14:21

Anyone following the Saracenís salary cap story?
No one is as blatant as Sarries, that's for sure I just wonder if it is happening?

Still they got exactly what they deserved yesterday. True the booing and actual unpleasantness is unbecoming of a rugby crowd. Hopefully other teams can let their players take the anger out on Sarries like we did yesterday.
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