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Taxijoe Posted on 03/12/2019 19:13
In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
 
13 Million.

Does anyone see this as being acceptable?

Link: Shocking
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FartingGnome Posted on 03/12/2019 19:15

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
It's because they don't save.

(c) M H Thatcher.
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bear66 Posted on 03/12/2019 19:16

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
If the 13 billion worked as hard as billionaires, they could all be billionaires.
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jam69 Posted on 03/12/2019 19:26

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
people with more money than they could ever spend, hording it away whilst people starve.
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BlindBoyGrunt1 Posted on 03/12/2019 19:34
Edited On: 03/12/2019 19:36
In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Money is a necessity, just like food and water, but if a select few people wished to hoard more food or water than they could ever use - enough to last them 30,000 years - whilst expecting those at the bottom to live on crumbs, there would be an outcry. But like food and water, there is enough for everybody but those who are in control of it wish to keep it for themselves and cause unnecessary hardship for others.

Nobody denies that hard work and enterprise, if you are successful, should afford you an affluent lifestyle but I think we are reaching a tipping point where more people than not are concluding that, when middle and working class tax payers are topping up the wages of the low paid, we have allowed it to go too far.

The wish for fairer distribution of wealth isn't envy.
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Taxijoe Posted on 03/12/2019 19:35

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Oddly enough bear66, it's the hard work of the 13 million that earned the money for the 6 richest.
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rayban Posted on 03/12/2019 19:38

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Whats new. Read your history books. It has always been thus.
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coluka Posted on 03/12/2019 20:01

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
It is wrong and sad, but what is the situation in the other G8 countries. Are we the worst for this?
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FartingGnome Posted on 03/12/2019 20:04
Edited On: 03/12/2019 20:06
In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"are we the worst for this?"

Er

Yes.

Looking at the stats recently and we've got the greatest inequality between wealthiest and poorest amongst the developed nations.

Or something.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Been drinking too much Rothschild wine.
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xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 03/12/2019 20:08

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Oh, if it's always been like that then it's ok...who needs a progressive society...

Ffs evolution is lost on you...
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BigmetsBoro86 Posted on 03/12/2019 20:09

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I think unless it's inheritance or a lottery win you'll find most rich people have worked for it.

I'm not saying its right or wrong. Just saying some rich folk have really grafted to get where they are.
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BlindBoyGrunt1 Posted on 03/12/2019 20:15

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
People don't win a thousand million pounds on the lottery, and nobody works hard enough to earn it.
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xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 03/12/2019 20:23

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I've no problems with billionairs...

I have a problem with them saying theyve worked hard for it when theyve usually used a work force that theyve exploited for every last penny of profit...

There are many who do give back and share their wealth but again only if theres profit in it for them...

People should feel honoured and see it as patriotic to use this wealth to look after those who need help...
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Boromart Posted on 03/12/2019 20:25

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
The outriders for these 'wealth creators', tell us that they worked hard and earned it, but how can one person work harder than 2.16million people? They tell us their hard work makes money for everyone else. But the reality is that wealth is relative, and if the majority of our nations combined wealth is in the hands of 6 people, then we are all poorer.

I really don't get how any self respecting person can say these billionaires deserve it, I'm lucky, and very well paid, and in the top 5% earners, and grateful for that, but I would need to work for 300 lifetimes to earn a billion if my fag packet calculations are correct....and that's gross pay, make it 450 lifetimes for a net billion and that's just one billion, these people have 10s of millions.
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bear66 Posted on 03/12/2019 20:34

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
A summary of Reich's view on why free market enterprise isn't the way people become billionaires :

"1) The first way is to exploit a monopoly.

2) A second way to make a billion is to get insider information unavailable to other investors.

3) A third way to make a billion is to buy off politicians.

4) The fourth way to make a billion is to extort big investors.

5) The fifth way to be a billionaire is to get the money from rich parents or relatives."
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Gibsons_Parmo Posted on 03/12/2019 20:41

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Nailed on that bear.

Once read a quote along the lines of - behind every successful company lay a dodgy dealing to set it on it's way.
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 03/12/2019 21:07

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
And its been like that for thousands of years.

This stat gets aired regularly. Sorry its not going to change anytime soon
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 03/12/2019 21:22

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Conserving the status quo, the inequality, the unfairness, is the cause you're championing?
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Funky_Chicken Posted on 03/12/2019 21:33

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
We are the fifth richest economy an yet we have large swathes of the countryís people living little better than those in a third world country - vote conservative if you want this to continue and get even worse



🐔
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Banned1 Posted on 03/12/2019 21:37

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Shameful and sadly similar applies in many other countries regardless of politics, dictatorship or any other system.
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American_Mary Posted on 03/12/2019 21:41

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Actually it hasnít been like that for thousands of years the concept of being money rich is relatively new, certainly less than a thousand years old, I guess the concept I find hardest to comprehend is how we created so many new billionaires during a period of Governmental austerity, why was the bottom level of social responsibility lowered whilst those at the top were allowed to increase, it doesnít make a lot of sense when you think about it does it ?
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Richyboro Posted on 03/12/2019 21:46

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
But Mary, I thought we were all in it together. [|)]

Did those lovely Tories just use the crash to implement a Tory wet dream policy of austerity? They seemed so genuine as well.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 03/12/2019 21:47

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
It's the austerity lie, AM. The spending has continued. The wealth redirected to increase inequality.
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American_Mary Posted on 03/12/2019 21:50

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Of course it is CtC, just hanging it out there to see if any of the Conservative leaning forumeers can try to explain it as something else ?
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Richyboro Posted on 03/12/2019 21:53

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Most of the country fell for it CtC, they fell for the brexit lie as well.
Make the lie big enough and keep repeating it and people will believe.
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Lemmy_Kilmister Posted on 03/12/2019 22:02

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"At the other end of the scale, the Equality Trust estimated that about 14m people in Britain live in poverty. Four million of these are said to be more than 50% below the poverty line and 1.5 million are"

The board Tories rejoice at such news.
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whatdoyoubench Posted on 03/12/2019 22:27

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
ďThere is something profoundly wrong with the way we look at success. [...] We cling to the idea that success is a simple function of individual merit and that the world in which we grow up and the rules we choose to write as a society don't matter at all."
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OneMoreTime Posted on 03/12/2019 22:37

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
J69 and xxl

Please can we jusr review your statemenets

Have a think about this and how charities operate.

0.00049% of the population donate 3.5billion to charity. Which is more than a third of all money that uk charities take in a year

I know its wrong they become so rich but you cant tar all with the same brush.
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 03/12/2019 23:28

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
What you want a Soviet style redistribution.

Or a Chinese style communist system ?

Or a Venezuelan style socialism. ?

Or maybe a Cambodian PolPot style enforcement of equality ?

Only socialist country that has any kind of economic/sccial 'success' is Cuba but its hardly a shining light.


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asredastheycome Posted on 03/12/2019 23:53

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Someone sent me this but I wouldn't know how to check it out.

"If you made $100k per day since Jesus died, you'd still be worth $34 billion less than Jeff Bezos (founder of amazon)"

That cant be right either.
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Rauko Posted on 04/12/2019 00:00

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
It boils my p!$$ when I hear the phrase : "they've worked hard for their money .. "

My dad did 12 hour shifts working in the sh!tt!est of conditions for 50 years and died with barely a penny to his name ..

Did they work harder than him?
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 04/12/2019 00:11

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
No they didn't Rauko - Good honest graft doesn't pay well

A lot of successful business people get a lucky break. Bill Gates didn't invent the microprocessor. Without he'd be nothing

Jess Bezos didn't invent the internet else nothing

Richard Branson didn't write Tubular Bells - else nothing

Peter Jones doesn't impress me much and neither Debbie Meadon.
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 04/12/2019 00:17

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"If you made $100k per day since Jesus died, you'd still be worth $34 billion less than Jeff Bezos (founder of amazon)"

Well thats about 72 bn so won't be much in it.

Wouldn't Bezos fancy a CShip club in the north east. Id let him have the best seat in the stadium
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richb Posted on 04/12/2019 01:04

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"What you want a Soviet style redistribution.

Or a Chinese style communist system ?

Or a Venezuelan style socialism. ?

Or maybe a Cambodian PolPot style enforcement of equality ?

Only socialist country that has any kind of economic/sccial 'success' is Cuba but its hardly a shining light"

You don't need to go all the way to one of those systems to improve the levels of equality in the UK. We only have one of the richest areas in Europe but 9 of the poorest. We aren't even in the top 20 richest countries in terms of GDP per capita despite being the 6th richest country in the world. Our levels of inequality are the worst in Europe and it's only getting worse.

We could look at Norway or Sweden for ways to improve things. They seem to be doing pretty well. But we wouldn't even need to go that far. Actually investing in poorer areas regardless of the way they vote rather than diverting funds to councils who vote for the incumbent government would be a start. Maybe investing in education and bringing EMA and university grants might help people continue their education as a route out of poverty. Maybe offering training schemes to help people gain new skills when their jobs disappear might help too. Especially with the way automation is taking away jobs in many sectors. Just a couple of ideas which might help improve things a little bit. Maybe a wealth of land tax might help pay for this much needed investment.

When we genuinely have some of the most deprived areas of Europe despite being one of the wealthiest countries, there's something very wrong. Things are clearly not working too well for most people at the moment... Maybe it's time we tried something different.
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expat_smoggie Posted on 04/12/2019 03:45

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Itís a world epidemicó I wouldnít say itís beyond solvable but itís very close to being that. Yes Norway has done a lot to reverse the trend but letís face it theyíre a small fish in a very large pond. Moreover if you take a looked at the world-wide homeless statistics youíll see that itís not just the UK with the problem even the likes of Japan have trouble in saving their people ó and their population is in decline.

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Denzodog Posted on 04/12/2019 06:15

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
One of these billionaires was on tv last evening,he came to Britain to join his parents when he was 13 years old,lived in a council house with his parents.He now owns hotels worldwide,and employs 3,000 people.
He said if a new Labour government,tries to "over "tax him,he will go and invest his money elsewhere.
We all should know by now,these billionaires contribute a huge ammount to our country,why would we want them to leave ?
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Taxijoe Posted on 04/12/2019 06:35

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
It always makes me laugh when people say stuff like that Denzodog, I would say to him, XXXXXXoff then. When he goes the building don't just turn to rubble, others come along and use them facilities and yes make money off them, but not quite as much as the previous ignorant greedy evil git.
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T1ffy Posted on 04/12/2019 06:39

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I don't get why some snowflakes get some obsessed and jealous over millionaire or billionaires. They made their money just like anybody else, but they just so happened to make alot more. Why should they be the penalised to pay for someone else who has a sh*t job.

If you're unhappy do something about it instead of wanting hand outs from the rich.
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Zoophonic Posted on 04/12/2019 06:40

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
The Asian hotelier of which Billog speaks already invests worldwide not just UK. He also spends a good deal of time outside the UK already to avoid tax. That is his decision but he is a bit disingenuous to suggest he spends all his money time and pays all his taxes here.
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Greenandblack Posted on 04/12/2019 07:11

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
***"If you made $100k per day since Jesus died, you'd still be worth $34 billion less than Jeff Bezos (founder of amazon)"***

Interesting, but not a valid comparison. If you'd earned all that money it would be sitting there in cash. Jeff Bezos' wealth is mostly tied to Amazon's share price. He has 80 million shares but he can't sell many without affecting the company's value.

I'm sure he has a great life but wealth in shares can be ephemeral.
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Zoophonic Posted on 04/12/2019 07:15

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
And going back to our Asian hotelier friend he would not sell up his hotel assets in UK. They would still be managed and he would still employ - mainly European staff. The hotel sector is nearing its life end at the moment and therefore investment in further assets in the U.K. probably wouldnít be made anyway.
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bear66 Posted on 04/12/2019 08:05

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"lived in a council house with his parents"

AHH yes, we had to give them up as it was more important to give tax breaks to the rich.
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Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 04/12/2019 08:13

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Jesus is alive and well and working in East Manchester.
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Small_town Posted on 04/12/2019 08:25

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I think Tiffy has it spot on. I think people who hate the rich or whine about inequality are jealous. They'd trade places with rhythm in a heartbeat. Good luck to them I say. Most have worked hard or had inspired ideas to make their fortunes
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bear66 Posted on 04/12/2019 08:33

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Most haven't. (Reich believes all haven't.)

And I wouldn't be a despicable scumbag, something necessary to flaunt common decency, to be a billionaire.

I would rather the world's resources kept everyone fed and healthy rather than sit in a bank in the Cayman Islands.
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newusername Posted on 04/12/2019 09:20

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
The Queen is the richest person in the UK.
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 04/12/2019 09:29

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"Most have worked hard or had inspired ideas to make their fortunes"

Or had a lucky break right place right time. As I listed earlier.

Or a mixture of both.

A long time ago I had a boss - company owner who got a bit lucky and made a lot of money. But he skirted around the law by not paying sick pay / not passing on tax to HMRC and a few other nasties. Mind you he ended up in jail.
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howcarlin Posted on 04/12/2019 09:39

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Who are these 6 people?
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howcarlin Posted on 04/12/2019 09:39

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Who are these 6 people?
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bear66 Posted on 04/12/2019 09:51

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Gopichand and Srichand Hinduja £12.8bn
Sir Jim Ratcliffe £9.4bn
Michael Platt £6.1bn
Simon and David Reuben £5.8bn

Over the last decade, billionaires in the UK have collectively more than doubled their wealth.
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 04/12/2019 09:54

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big fortune
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richb Posted on 04/12/2019 10:02

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"One of these billionaires was on tv last evening,he came to Britain to join his parents when he was 13 years old,lived in a council house with his parents.He now owns hotels worldwide,and employs 3,000 people.
He said if a new Labour government,tries to "over "tax him,he will go and invest his money elsewhere."

So all the tax payers paid and subsidised the house he grew up in. I presume he also used NHS health care and a state education system. He benefitted from a well educated workforce and good infrastructure when building his business but he doesn't want to pay taxes to help other people have the opportunities he had.

And we're meant to have sympathy with that view?

I also wonder where he's going to go. Our rates of tax will still be modest compared to the rest of Europe.
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whatdoyoubench Posted on 04/12/2019 10:15

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Boggles my mind people think you can just graft and become a billionaire.

Bill gates often acknowledges the role of luck in his ascension to richest man in the world.

The bestselling book outliers by Malcolm explores this topic. I donít agree with how easily he draws conclusions from limited data but itís interesting nonetheless.

Itís not a coincidence that many of the richest men to ever live rose to prominence in the same era. The oil and rail tycoons of the 19th century. Gates and his peers with computing. More recently those able to capitalise on this specific period In which we suddenly all have internet connected devices in our pockets

Ability + Opportunity + Effort + Luck = Success


ďAbility without opportunity is nothingĒ

A quote from Napoleon in memory of the great Tony Pulis.


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CasinoGrande Posted on 04/12/2019 10:34

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I love the way the boards elder statesmen have this blamed on the Tories. They aint made it better but I can't recall a socialist utopia 12 years ago.
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American_Mary Posted on 04/12/2019 10:44

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Fair play to any millionaire or billionaire I have no jealousy or rancour towards anybody who attains that level of wealth, my point is why is Government policy lowering the standards of living at the poorer end of the market yet creating a situation where many are able to exploit loopholes etc at the richer end of the scale, no one is saying that billionaires should be penalised just that they should not be given free rein on what they pay due to various tax breaks and offshore schemes.
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bargain_basement Posted on 04/12/2019 11:17

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
When you read a post like these you see all the pent up bile socialist thrive on. They pretend to care about the injustice but deep down it's plain jealousy that someone is more successful than them.

It's easy to see it in two simple replies, they jump down your throat of anyone suggesting someone has worked hard for their money and all billionaires got their money by exploiting the workers.

If Labour get in all they will do is tax the earnings of the wealthy this will not address the amount of wealth they still have, so they will still have billions.

Someone posted so what if they leave, if they do then that's millions taken away from the tax system. Who's going to make up the difference? The 95% Corbyn promised won't be paying any more tax?

It's about time politicians sat down with the extremely wealthy and discussed ways they could channel money into funding government ideas to help the rest of us. Instead of the constant vilification.


Gopichand and Srichand Hinduja £12.8bn

Go on then how do you half dozen moaning the most get these two billionaires to part with their money to help the people you suggest need it more?
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redwurzel Posted on 04/12/2019 11:25

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Communism and far left Socialism don't work over a significant period, because too few people care enough about others to just work hard for them. In China its not really communism any longer but a type of capitalism controlled by an elite that call themselves the communism party, but lower down money is used to incentivise. Too often Nationalism gets mixed up with Communism too.

Pure Capitalism does not work neither, because ultimately most of the money ends up in the hands of the few as their economic power gets bigger and bigger and with it their control.

The Scandinavians seems to me to have the best system where some people have wealth but there are no poor. I thought this was happening in the UK, but since 1979 the welfare state had been reduced which was designed to mop up those predominately at the bottom while the wealth of those near the top has increased a lot without incomes at the bottom increasing at all in real terms.

There seems to be too many ways of avoiding to pay tax at present in the UK for those towards the top end.

Also the money that comes in taxation - most of it is spent by those in the middle and even toward the top end rather than on those in real need at the bottom. For example having 33% of NHS staff as managers, Chief Executives on £500k plus in the NHS and Public Sector. Spending hundred of millions on assessing people who are disabled instead of helping them.

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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 04/12/2019 11:37
Edited On: 04/12/2019 11:39
In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Once the 'jealous' claim appears you know that the argument against a fairer society has been beaten.

There are many wealthy people looking for a fairer society too, it's not just those at the lower end of the wealth spectrum.

There's a few comparatively wealthy on this board calling for it.
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richb Posted on 04/12/2019 11:37

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
It would be useful if you actually addressed the arguments rather than creating your own strawman and arguing against that.

Nobody is jealous of billionaires. I would feel embarrassed to have that much when nurses and teachers are using foodbanks and former armed forces are living on the streets. If I was in that position and I could help resolve this problem by paying a bit more into the system, I would.

Plus, if all the billionaires leave (they won't) then it won't just leave the 95% who don't pay tax living here. Billionaires aren't waged workers, so the full 100% of waged workers would still be here - including the 5% who will pay more income tax. Many millionaires who live here are supportive of these changes, so they will still be here paying tax. Corporations will still want access to our market, so they will still be taxed here.

There is no jealousy here. Just the belief that those lucky enough to have vast wealth are not so much more deserving of help than the people who educate our young, nurse the sick and keep us safe. A bit more tax wouldn't make any material change to their lives but it could transform the lives of those at the bottom of society.

I'm sure you don't think the ex forces living in the streets deserve to be there. So why are you so willing to oppose an increase in tax which could help fund the measures needed to end homelessness in this country?
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American_Mary Posted on 04/12/2019 11:41

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
All services should have a review and look at where money is being wasted and where savings that wouldnít impact the services on offer wouldnít be compromised, thinks like taking auxiliary services back under hospital and school wings if itís going to produce a saving should be looked at, a more transparent and fully broken down tax bill so you know exactly what youíre paying for what would be one way of helping towards better understanding of where our tax pounds go.
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jam69 Posted on 04/12/2019 11:48

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
the rich threaten to leave every time they are asked to pay a little more to help improve the country for everyone.
they never leave but some fall for it and vote to protect their billions
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richb Posted on 04/12/2019 12:31

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"In China its not really communism any longer but a type of capitalism controlled by an elite that call themselves the communism party, but lower down money is used to incentivise. Too often Nationalism gets mixed up with Communism too."

Communism has never happened, all communist countries have been socialist or state capitalist with the aim of reaching communism (capitalist - capitalists own the means of production, communist - the people own the means of production, socialist - the government own the means of production). Ruling Communist Party leaders they always talk about the match towards communism because thats what they aim for.

China still claims to be working towards communism. As China never really had a developed capitalist society, Marxist theory would suggest that they need to create the conditions for capitalism to allow the communism to eventually emerge. That's why Lenin deemed it necessary to develop a state capitalist system and why China has done the same but with some introduction of some private enterprise. From both a Marxist and a free market perspective, China isn't a capitalist country. The Chinese government still own the means of production, so it is still socialist.

I study politics so I find this kind of stuff interesting. But I find it absurd that people point towards China as being a capitalist country when there is still a lot of state planning and the Chinese government still owns all of the land and most of the companies (in some form). China isn't a good country for capitalists, communists or socialists to point towards as proof that their system works. It's awfully authoritarian, its human rights record is terrible and there's still a lot of poverty.

Also, as for an elite controlling the Chinese communist party. Most democratic centralist communist countries were incredibly elitist. Lenin believed that a vanguard of elite class-conscious prolatariats were required to sieze control of the government in order to reform it in the interests of the people so that it could be handed back to the prolatariats when they are sufficiently educated about class and are ready to run the country in their own interests.

It's not difficult to see the problems with that if one leader decides they like the power and don't want to hand it back to the people. See Stalin, Joseph.

But it's not unusual for a Communist Party to be elitist, I'd say it's to be expected.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with the subject. But I get frustrated when people say "China isn't communist anymore" when it's never been communist and it's most certainly not capitalist either!
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boromike85 Posted on 04/12/2019 12:45

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"Also the money that comes in taxation - most of it is spent by those in the middle and even toward the top end rather than on those in real need at the bottom. For example having 33% of NHS staff as managers, Chief Executives on £500k plus in the NHS and Public Sector."

Those figures aren't correct. In an average Trust about 20% of NHS employees are management and admin. The vast majority of them are admin and are towards the bottom end of the pay bands doing things like reception in clinics/A&E and typing up doctors notes. A lot of them were the group to be cut under austerity which was stupid because you then have clinical staff doing it which means they aren't seeing patients. It's a false economy. The group you would actually class as managers is relatively small, much smaller than any other private industry. It's under 2%. Despite what people say about mismanagement in the NHS, the majority of that is because there aren't enough managers, no too many, and not enough money is spent on providing them with the data and tools they need to manage effectively.

There are probably fewer than 30 people in an average Trust that earn the same or above the starting salary for a Consultant. There will be 10x more consultants than those 30 managers. Consultants are not managers and allowing them to act like they are and manage themselves causes huge problems. Also, those Chief Execs on £500k are only in the biggest Trusts, some of which have £2bn budgets and millions of people's health to be responsible for. Those salaries are very high but they are still miniscule compared to private companies.
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masqueSmog Posted on 04/12/2019 13:10
Edited On: 04/12/2019 13:27
In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I know we have moved away from the OP, but NHS admin costs are lower than most other systems. From a Commonwealth Fund study (not THAT commonwealth, a US organisation):

"Administrative costs account for 25 percent of total U.S. hospital spending, according to a new study that compares these costs across eight nations. The United States had the highest administrative costs; Scotland and Canada had the lowest. Reducing U.S. per capita spending for hospital administration to Scottish or Canadian levels would have saved more than $150 billion in 2011."

In the report UK = 16%; NL = 20%; US = 25%

Remember also, both the NL (a little bit) and the US (a lot) spend a higher % of their GDP on health systems.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/journal-article/2014/sep/comparison-hospital-administrative-costs-eight-nations-us

(what happened with the link function here?)
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redwurzel Posted on 04/12/2019 14:19

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I was always told it was about 33% in managerial positions from people with no agenda on the issue. I agree money is wasted in the USA because of the numbers involved in dealing with insurance companies etc. Western European health is expensive but its clinical delivery overall is higher with higher life expectancy than the UK.

Managing in the Public sector and Private sectors is in general, different. There is often no or limited competition in the public sector and less accountability when something goes wrong. Look at Stafford Hospital where hundreds died, that did not need to. How many senior managers were sacked? How many were prosecuted?

How much has been wasted on defunct IT systems in the NHS?

On Teesside - What are the jobs at Flatts Lane (NHS)?

The front line staff do a very good job, but I do believe not as much money as should be is getting to the front line. My local hospital pays somewhere between 10% to 15% (depending on differing sources) of its annual revenue to private finance companies for its PFI debt. Even at 10% that seems very high in what is like paying a mortgage back.

It is possible to get 8% returns on Investment trusts that invest in UK public sector projects, someone is paying for those returns.
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masqueSmog Posted on 04/12/2019 14:43

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I don't know what to say RW. There are other comparison studies like this one which consistently show that NHS admin costs are in this range, and compare well with other comparable systems.

Yes, most of the EU countries have better services, and better health outcomes. But the major systems are spending as much or more on admin and, probably more importantly, more (in terms of gdp) on the core system itself.

As for the other issues. Isn't that another thread about accountability, large scale IT systems etc etc? Some of which might be related to good use of taxes, but some maybe not.
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bear66 Posted on 04/12/2019 14:51

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Management/admin costs used to be about 6% of the NHS costs, although introduction of the market system in 2012 has increased that considerably. It's difficult to say how much but a worst estimate is 15%.
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rayban Posted on 04/12/2019 18:59

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
XXL you are imbecile. What has a progressive society and evolution got to do with the fact that there have always been significantly less rich people than poor people.
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redwurzel Posted on 04/12/2019 19:04

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
The Chief Executive of Tees Valley Mental Health decided to leave his job today. The Gazette report his basic salary was £205,000 so I apologise I over estimated the CE's salary in this case - still £205k with a good pension is not bad for serious failure.

Bear - you are saying Admin costs have gone up from 6% to 15% in 7 years?

I support the NHS but in recent years there seems to be more going into non front line services. Things like hospital parking was always free, especially for out of town centre hospitals. Money Week reported that in PFI deals hospital trust were taken to the cleaners by private companies and the cost is now hitting home which is so sad and must affect front line services.
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Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 04/12/2019 19:09

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
Its a damning indictment on not just the UK, but the world generally.

And for those who passively suggest 'what do you expect, its always been like that', then I suggest thats the whole point of what we vote for on 12th December.

I just hope the people who have a social conscience outnumber those who dont.
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bear66 Posted on 04/12/2019 19:10

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
According to one link which ascribes the 9% increase to the change to GP clinical commissioning groups. It then said it depended how much of the increase was down to admin costs so that is a maximum figure.
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plazmuh Posted on 04/12/2019 19:17

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
[^][^]

Here is that reality sandwich I promised you

earlier on..

Careful what you wish for..

Link: xxx
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Boromart Posted on 04/12/2019 22:30

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
clive_road_stamper, nothing will change if no one fights it, or you simply saying accept your place, respect your betters, the elite, and don't dare to dream of fighting back? If this is how you feel, then you are nothing but a political eunuch
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Boromart Posted on 04/12/2019 22:34

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"What you want a Soviet style redistribution."

YOu seem to work in extremes, it's either free market economics or it's communism, nothing in between. Fact is our governments are in control of the rules, they can, with pressure from the people, ensure that the gap reduces through creating barriers to extreme wealth. They choose not to , because not enough people have been vocal enough
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Boromart Posted on 04/12/2019 22:42

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
"He said if a new Labour government,tries to "over "tax him,he will go and invest his money elsewhere."

What does overtax mean? He pays a lower % of his earnings in tax than you or I.

If he were to leave, then he would have to sell his hotels, there would still be demand for the hotel, so someone would buy them up. Either individual or as a job lot. Preferably individual so that we can create 100 millionaires rather than a billionaire, or maybe some cooperatives with the hard working staff invested int eh company being successful.

Meanwhile where exactly is Mr billionaire now going to invest his money, which other economy is he going to put it into that will give him the same returns he gets here? Where ever it is, he could have put it there before now if he's so damn rich and it's such a better market.

The biggest scourge we have in our economy is the billionaire investor expecting his high rate of return, while avoiding tax, blackmailing the government, and paying his staff a pittance to maximise his profit. I'm happy to see those types disappear
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masqueSmog Posted on 04/12/2019 22:46

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
I think on PFI most would now agree it was a bad model. Jeremy Corbyn too.

I assume both main parties are looking to run down or end the use of PFI.
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redwurzel Posted on 04/12/2019 23:54

In the UK the 6 richest people have more than the poorest..
PFI on my local hospital is now around 15 years old - The details of the contract is supposedly secret, but I would expect the private investors would sue any Government that just cancelled it - which means they need a significant taxpayer pay out to cancel it.

The hospital car park including staff car park appears to be owned by a company called Sodexo. I believe its £1.80 a hour to park there. The most expensive car park in the centre of the city is only £1.30 a hour. The hospital is on edge of the City. Apologies for going into detail, but I get accused of lies or generalisations if I don't. It seems to me an example of over charging the ill and their families and friends who are helping them.
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