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Adi_Dem Posted on 30/11/2019 18:46
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
 
...being a red and hating Geordies is going to be enough.

Almost every relegated team has certain characteristics beyond just being XXXXXX. Thereís always an injury crisis necessitating players being moved around in unfamiliar positions. There are always moments of indiscipline like Johnsonís. They are always Ďunluckyí with decisions or the run of the green. There are always hidings (think Sheff Wed and today).

Thatís where weíre heading and probably where we deserve to go. The conclusion of a period of utter incompetence summed up neatly by the parochial, insular and small time decision to appoint a Boro lad and his mates.

Link:
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Nobby_Barnes Posted on 30/11/2019 18:57

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
...and to think, you wanted Pulis out.

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Adi_Dem Posted on 30/11/2019 19:04

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
And rightly so Nobby. I know this might be tricky for you but wanting Pulis out is not the same as wanting Woodgate in.
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Heam44 Posted on 30/11/2019 19:09

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Iím not convinced Woodgate can keep us up, I would like to think he can turn it round and keep us up but based on what we have seen so far I think he would probs take us down however I think the squad is easily good enough to to stay up with a decent and experienced manager. So for me the big question is when does Gibson pull the plug on Woody if results donít improve. That will probably be the decider for me (again presuming Woody doesnít turn it round).
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hielo Posted on 30/11/2019 19:10

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
So what would you do Adi? Presumably sack Woodgate. Then what?
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Nobby_Barnes Posted on 30/11/2019 19:13

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I think Pulis did what he could with a limited squad and quite rightly played to its defensive strengths.

This notion that you can just click your fingers, sign a couple of youngsters and play expansive attacking football is just naive.

Pulis is just what we could do with right now to get back to basics !
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DowningAlbion Posted on 30/11/2019 19:13

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
If Pulis was still here we'd be top 6 and in the promotion race

God knows who the rabid Pulis-Out mob thought we could get instead, but it's going to end in relegation to League One...

RESULT [|)]
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borofan402 Posted on 30/11/2019 19:15
Edited On: 30/11/2019 19:20
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The blame lies solely at Gibsonís door.

Nobody wanted Woodgate, everyone was very vocal about it. Oh no, Gibson knew best. He wouldnít be told.

Whatís worse is he gives Woodgate the job, completely out of his depth and hardly any money to spend. Heís purely a fall guy to take the backlash. Look at our line up and our bench on match days itís wafer thin and is so devoid of quality.

The club went downhill from January 2017 and each decision from Gibson seems to make our situation even worse.

BBC Tees, Gazette reporters and some individuals on here have played their part too, continually singing the clubs praises and burying their heads in the sand. All to attempt to earn favour with Gibson. As a result we are sleep walking to League 1 and it will be deserved.

You know things are desperate when you hear Maddo talk about teams doing us a favour when we are in November!
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kingcreole Posted on 30/11/2019 19:15

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Adi_Dem - it kind of is the same because without Pulis out we could never have Woodgate in
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Adi_Dem Posted on 30/11/2019 19:18

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
No, itís not.
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GusboroughSteve Posted on 30/11/2019 19:19

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Have to agree 100pc Adi. We're in as bad a state as 86.
The summer buys were just appalling added to the rubbish we knew we had. And we still hear people talking up that rubbish. I'm thinking powder puff Fletcher etc.
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mwelolo Posted on 30/11/2019 19:23

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Spot on Adi.
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borofan402 Posted on 30/11/2019 19:24
Edited On: 30/11/2019 19:25
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Pulis HAD to go. But not ONE fan wanted Woodgate in. Our chairman seems to be impervious to blame by the Gibsonites, as a result it doesnít matter who our manager is.

Poor transfer business for Jan 2017 onwards has come home to roost and we are now stuck with one of the most mentally weak sides Iíve seen from us.
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MoggasDog Posted on 30/11/2019 19:27

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
We did the hard bit and got promoted

We kept Karanka for too long and then put up the white flag with the appointment of agnew.
The decisionsduring the prem season were insane.
Why didnt we spend the money monk spunk.ed in the Championship to buy players to stay in the prem?

I think that Prem season will live with me for a long time because it was the biggest anti-climax I have ever suffered as a Boro fan.

All very weird and just gets weirder.
I really feel sorry for Woody-he just could not turn that job down but i think he has been fitted up.
A decision has been made by the club in the summer to cut the budget and come what may.
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borofan402 Posted on 30/11/2019 19:30

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Thereís no shame in not cutting it in the Premiership. But this spell has seen the club just aimlessly downwards to more mediocrity. The club is where it deserves to be right now.
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festa5 Posted on 30/11/2019 19:31
Edited On: 30/11/2019 19:48
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
This'd be the Pulis who backed Woodgate as a future manager and who left us in the "really strong position" of not having a pot to XXXXXX in?

He couldn't get us top 6 with £21m to spend on new signings, not to mention the half dozen loan players he was able to bring in. How on earth would he have top 6 now without those advantages? [:o)]

This hardcore Pulis fanclub are as deluded as Gibson. He's part of the reason we are where we are. He'd have us midtable no doubt, but so would any half competent manager.
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uncle_rico Posted on 30/11/2019 19:32

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Just because Woodgate doesnít have a clue what heís doing, doesnít mean that Pulis should still be our manager. Itís not one or the other, theyíre not mutually exclusive.

I donít know what the answer is, but itís definitely not Woodgate or Pulis.
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Derek_Duvall Posted on 30/11/2019 19:57

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
People now starting to see. I just hope there's three worse teams than us, coz, to me, it's the only way we're going to stay up.

And to think, some on here had us down for a win today!
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Wanderingstar Posted on 30/11/2019 19:58

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Without Pulis, we could still have had Bamford, and Ben Gibson, we would certainly have had a more confident Assombalonga, and Fletcher, probably a rejuvenated Braithwaite, and an attacking full back in Christie, oh and we wouldnít have to,endure, and have wasted seven million on our future captain aka Saville.
We wouldnít have wasted loan fees on Hugill, and Besic, and we wouldnít have watched, wasted, seven million, and laughed at a donkey of a centre half in Flint. We would be hugely better off from the audacious salary including transfer fee commissions paid to, the Dick Turpin of modern managers. All those pining for pulis need to take a huge reality check
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Wanderingstar Posted on 30/11/2019 20:03

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The Woodgate appointment is identical to that of Mowbray, Primarily to deflect criticism from the bizarre previous decisions made by the owner, it will only end in tears
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CrazyL Posted on 30/11/2019 20:09

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Itís a really bad mistake to make this a thread of Pulis against Woodgate. Itís not what the OP was intending. To argue that these were our only two choices is pretty much nonsense. Pulis was always leaving. Woodgate did not have to be the replacement, and shouldnít have been. It was yet another stupid, ill-judged parochial choice and we are getting what the appointment deserved.
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Derek_Duvall Posted on 30/11/2019 20:18

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
What bugs the hell out of me is that there were really good managers out of work which would have jumped at the chance, surely.

There still are. I just don't get it. Experienced managers can work without a budget. Warnock seems to do it okay.
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dooderooni Posted on 30/11/2019 20:33

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Pulis had to go. Not just for the standard of football which was driving people away, but also for his part in lumbering us with a badly balanced and poor value squad.

I'm sick of telling people on here that I can read Gibson like a book or that I told you all this time last year that Woodgate would get the job. This uber-parochialism set in after Aitor started moving us towards a far more continental format and threatening the status quo.

I'll confidently predict now that when Gibson finally hits the panic button on Woodgate that it'll be widely regarded as being far too late. Then we've got to rely on his decision making to appoint a successor.

Football has left Gibson behind and now that he can't buy success he's floundering and we're heading towards a potential spell in League One.

Call me all the names under the sun, but I, like Gibbo, couldn't give a toss any more.
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This_is_the_guy Posted on 30/11/2019 20:33

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
100% agree with you Moggasdog

Bad decision after bad decision for the last few years
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Riponred Posted on 30/11/2019 20:42

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I think we can stay up. At least 4 teams Iíve seen this season look worse than us.
Itís not going to be pretty but a couple of decent loan signings could make a big difference come January.
Iím always the eternal optimist but Woodgate has had a pair of 2s to bluff with this season.
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Richyboro Posted on 30/11/2019 20:44

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Moggasdog [^] it was the total disappointment of the January transfer window that did it for me. Was it Gestede, Bamford and Guedioura that we brought in? Might as well have put up the white flag. Just a waste of a season.
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newyddion Posted on 30/11/2019 20:50

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Gerard Deulofeu over Bamford, Gestede and the other bloke [^]

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kenna Posted on 30/11/2019 20:54

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
With a squad as bad as this and a rookie manager it was doomed before it even started
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Derek_Duvall Posted on 30/11/2019 20:56

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Hope so Ripon Red. I'm not sure I've seen three worse teams than us and I've never seen a more baffling substitution than the Hull one either.

Like Dood said above, I have no faith in the manager or the chairman and the fact that we SILL have no width, no guile, no pace and play square pegs in round holes, tells me we are just second rate.
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MoggasDog Posted on 30/11/2019 21:26

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
of our prem season, bob mortimer summed it up eloquently: we turned up, farted then left.

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borofan402 Posted on 30/11/2019 21:52

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Of now: weíve shat ourselves and canít afford a new nappy
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Indeedido Posted on 01/12/2019 00:19

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Gibson has to be outed for what he is; a complete and utter fūckwit.
Karanka got him out of jail with promotion.
He didn't back him, we went down, he appointed successive clowns who wasted the money Karanka generated, then appointed a lad so out of his depth to take the fall.
Stevie Gibson isn't "king" he is the elephant sized problem in the room.
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truck Posted on 01/12/2019 00:44

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
How was Karanka not backed? he made several signings all defensive minded other than a quality forward who was left to play up front isolated.

we are sufferings from XXXXXX transfer windows from the last 3 years, some of our core players have been here all that time and are older and no better.

i think sadly we have a few years of hardship ahead, the squad we have could be higher placed and i think we will climb the table but mid table is our max.

Today had no expectation at all we could get a result, thin squad, injuries etc bookies had us at 10:1 they had it right. I hoped we might nick a draw at best.

Think britt last few games has been very impressive generally, fletcher for the main continues to be a striker who can link up play but rarely gets in the danger zone, and never seems to want to bust a gut to get to a chance. Britt does.

These same players missed loads of chances last year under Pulis, look no further for our shortcomings than the forwards and the so called midfield / creative unit
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Indeedido Posted on 01/12/2019 00:47

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
We were the lowest nett spenders in our PL season, when we needed to establish ourselves.
Gibson most certainly did not back Karanka that season.

Fletcher is fūcking useless by the way. Heartless, useless , ponce.
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JLinardi Posted on 01/12/2019 02:18

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Great post dooderoni, cant argue with any of it.
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UKLL1981 Posted on 01/12/2019 05:25
Edited On: 01/12/2019 05:26
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Everyone could see this coming from a mile off. Everyone knew it would be Woodgate and everyone knew he would struggle. Enjoy your league one football next year. Half the crowd will still be singing those stupid Gibson songs and claiming heís the messiah.
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coluka Posted on 01/12/2019 09:05

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
ďGod knows who the rabid Pulis-Out mob thought we could get instead, but it's going to end in relegation to League OneĒ

Bearing in mind it was Gibson himself and not the fans who chose not to offer Pulis a new contract and chose to select Woodgate, how do you feel about Gibson then CardiffDaffs? Is he as bad as these fans you speak of?

He is not a king, he is an emperor and he has surrounded himself with people who admire his new clothes, donít be one of them.
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Nero Posted on 01/12/2019 12:35

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
If Woodgate remains in charge Boro fans better hope there's 3 worse teams than us. His team are awful. It lacks absolutely everything.

Just imagine how bad it will be in League One.
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Marvanelli Posted on 01/12/2019 13:55

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Some posters honestly don't understand wanting Pulis out is not the same as wanting Woodgate in!

Was it the right decision to bin Pulis? Very much!
Was it the right decision to replace him with Woodgate? It's proving to be no. And nearly everyone on here said they didn't want Woody in charge which beggars belief why Gibbo hired him! (we know why, cost cutting...)
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 01/12/2019 14:03

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
All management appoints are stepping into unknown, Ive never become attached to a manager after they sacked Rioch.
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monkeymfc Posted on 01/12/2019 14:08

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
a brilliant and acute OP. I hope you're not headed downwards, but it does look like it. The Barnsley win seems like a very thin bandage.

In addition to the OP, you might add that this has been the general trajectory since relegation. Hope I'm wrong.
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Wanderingstar Posted on 01/12/2019 15:58

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Agree with monkey, but the trajectory worsened considerably with the arrival of Pulis, reminiscent of your experience with Holloway, and now we have the pair of them sitting on the quest tv programme telling everyone what is required in the championship. Arrogant twits
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Derek_Duvall Posted on 01/12/2019 16:04

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Well said Monkey. We've been on a downward spiral since Eindhoven in all honesty, apart from the promotion season.

Problem is our recruitment. You could have the best manager in the world, but until we get this sorted we will always be second rate. If Brentford and Sheff Utd can do it, I don't see why we can't.

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Adi_Dem Posted on 01/12/2019 22:48

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I donít think thatís quite right Derek. I think that once we brought Karanka in we began an upward trajectory. It was uncomfortable territory for Gibson I think. First foreign coach with a very strong idea of what was required, building a coaching team around him, setting the club up in his image and then at the first sign of trouble he panicked to my mind. Retreated back into this insular and parochial mentality that has informed each and every one of his decisions since.

Itís as simple as this: if recruitment continues to be as ridiculously bad as it has been post promotion and that dreadful performance continues no matter what else you change, at some point you have to take a look at the team itself.

Our model (Ajax-lite as I keep calling it) is absolutely the right one. Build from the academy and from rough diamonds found in obscure places. However, for that to succeed it has to be built on a foundation of best in class recruitment. If the model is built on shoddy recruitment and to add insult to injury you appoint a local lad with no experience and no qualifications in the top job you end up without the correct tools to implement the strategy.

We have an ambitious plan and are trying to unearth the leadership team from a pool of local lads with some sort of connection to the club. We will get what that ultimately deserves.
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Indeedido Posted on 01/12/2019 23:08

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
It's not an ambitious plan Adi, it is a fantasy, unless it is enabled by the right people and given time.
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uncle_rico Posted on 01/12/2019 23:25

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I think weíd all be prepared to give it time if we werenít nosediving straight into League One.

45 minutes against Brentford (a game we lost 1-0) and half an hour vs Hull (a game we drew after being 2 up at half time) does not give any confidence that we have what it takes to stay up.

The only obvious and realistic change we can make is to the head coach / manager. We need someone who can get the best out of what we got. Not a rookie who is making mistake after mistake.
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dooderooni Posted on 02/12/2019 00:04

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Adi, as you'll know, 90% of what you've written is the same as I've been saying for years so I heartily agree

However, this Ajax-lite stuff is something I'd take issue with. While it might be what we're trying, it has only come about because of circumstances, not through choice. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it's more of convenient excuse to cover-up our mismanagement than it is a philosophy going forward.

Pound to a penny that there'll be a new "silver bullet" being espoused as our future plan when Gibson replaces Woodgate.
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br14 Posted on 02/12/2019 01:51
Edited On: 02/12/2019 01:51
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
"I think weíd all be prepared to give it time if we werenít nosediving straight into League One."

Revenues in League One (for all clubs) are around 20% those in the Championship, which are around 12% of the Premier League.

If we're having a hard time making money stretch in the Championship, imagine what will happen in League One. Assuming the usual player contracts are in place, we'll be totally buggered financially.

And the academy will probably have to go or at least be severely stripped back.

For this reason Woodgate has to be replaced unless some kind of miraculous turn around occurs in December.

If Mr Gibson doesn't fire Woodgate, then you can assume the fiscal situation is so dire he can't even afford to pay for a decent manager. (Which I suspect is the reason Pulis is no longer at the club).
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 08:15

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Dood, Iím not saying itís been implemented by design. Intend to agree that it has been driven by necessity. All I do say though is that itís the right approach but for it to work it needs a really smart manager and a really competent recruitment team. We have neither and so it will fail.
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BoroBen92 Posted on 02/12/2019 08:18

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I'm not convinced he hates Geordies enough.

Loves Leeds too.
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Greenandblack Posted on 02/12/2019 08:34

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
***We were the lowest nett spenders in our PL season, when we needed to establish ourselves.
Gibson most certainly did not back Karanka that season.***

The club has just lost £50 million getting to the Prem league, and only made £5 million in that Prem League season, so there wasn't much more that could have been spent.

It's far easier to get decisions right when you look through the retrospectascope but if you count the number of struggling clubs, it's clearly hard.

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". © Mike Tyson
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 09:35

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I agree with that greenandblack. Said so at the time. I don't think it has ever really been the want of financial backing that has been at the heart of our problems.
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uncle_rico Posted on 02/12/2019 10:39

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Agree Adi, its the consistent terrible decision making that is the problem.
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hamstercheeks Posted on 02/12/2019 10:46

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The problem with trying to be like Ajax is that we dont have the same talent pool to pick from.

They can cherry pick the best Dutch talent and obviously we can't do the same here.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 10:50

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The problem with trying to be like Ajax is that they're one of the most successful and biggest football clubs in the world. And we're not and almost definitely never will be.
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joseph99 Posted on 02/12/2019 10:58

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The club is in crisis and needs to take some sound decisions now to avoid relegation. The best idea is to bring in an experienced survivor with good track record and give him a budget to bring in some key players which he could be aligning now, not in Jan.

If action is not taken whale oil beef hooked and relegation beckons.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 11:15

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
"I'll confidently predict now that when Gibson finally hits the panic button on Woodgate that it'll be widely regarded as being far too late."

If Gibson acts now, dood, will you give him any credit for it?
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dooderooni Posted on 02/12/2019 11:36

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
If he acts now it'll signal a level of self-awareness that I think he's been missing for a while atypical, so yes I'll give him credit for that.

Despite how it may look, I'm not anti-Gibson, I'm just hugely frustrated that he seems to be self-destructive and that all the good work he's done in the past is being dismantled by his inability to move with the times. There's plenty of proof there that overpaying for run of the mill players no longer works and yet we still do it.

You only need to look at the legacies of great Boro players to see why I'm concerned. Two of our greatest ever defenders went on to manage us and their ultimately failed tenures now taint what they did on the pitch. Gibson is in danger of tainting his own legacy.
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scuzzmonster1 Posted on 02/12/2019 11:43

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Does anyone know for sure if Jonny Woodgate *does* hate Geordies? Has anyone actually asked him?
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 11:48

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I highly doubt it, scuzz, given that he played for them and cites his spell there as the best of his career.
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scuzzmonster1 Posted on 02/12/2019 11:50

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
There you go, atyp. The killer blow.
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 12:07

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
"The problem with trying to be like Ajax is that they're one of the most successful and biggest football clubs in the world. And we're not and almost definitely never will be."

That's why I said Ajax-lite. I am not for one moment suggesting we can emulate anything like what Ajax have done or that we should aim for that. What I am saying is that the general principles of Ajax i.e. building using the academy, adding players we can develop for modest transfer fees, having a system of play that runs through the club from to to bottom and doesn't chop and change with each managerial appointment is the right approach. Rather than changing with each managerial appointment, spunking millions on players season upon season and having no discernable identity.
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WoodallServices Posted on 02/12/2019 12:14

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
If we want to be Ajax Lite then throw all the money we can and get Heine Otto in.[B)]
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Derek_Duvall Posted on 02/12/2019 12:16
Edited On: 02/12/2019 12:23
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Wasn't it mentioned though, in the unveiling of Woodgate, or am I dreaming it? That we had studied the Ajax model and were hoping to try to implement a similar style.

I thought Otto would have been a great shout at manager, as would Reiziger.

But we scoured the world and found Woodgate. [rle]
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 12:18
Edited On: 02/12/2019 12:30
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I wouldn't say that its the 'wrong approach' Adi, but its just not very easy to implement. If it was, more clubs would be doing it correctly. I dare say loads of clubs are trying it, but not achieving it. Its actually quite limiting, when you hit stormy waters, to stick to the same style of play, and may not be very effective.

As someone else said, they can cherry pick the best kids in the Netherlands (and other countries since they have a strong global brand, built up over decades), so its no wonder they are more likely to successfully implement a particular playing style. We can't do that because we don't have a production line of good, cheap, young players. Most clubs are heavily investing in their academies now.

If Gibson said he was sticking with Woodgate now because we'd bought into a long term plan, fans would be even more upset than if he'd stuck with Pulis last summer.

Football is an ever-moving target, fans' expectations change from one week to the next. I say give the new guy 6 months, then if he does well, give him another 12 months.
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JonJon Posted on 02/12/2019 12:20

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Nigel Pearson is always mentioned whenever it's time for a new manager. He is one of the last people I would ever want to see at our club, but, and I never thought I'd say this, we might be in a slightly better position now if Gibson had appointed him instead of Woodgate.

Woodgate was a disastrous appointment. Deep down we all knew it at the time and I don't think anyone's really surprised that it's gone the way it has. Similarly, we all fear that, true to form, Gibson will keep faith with Woodgate until it's too late and we will end up sleep-walking into League One.

I don't know what's wrong with Gibson. His judgment was never that great, but in the past few years he seems to have lost it completely.
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 12:25

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I couldn't disagree more. I think there are lots and lots of examples of clubs adopting variations on that theme very successfully. We have a good pool of players to pick from but fail in our scouting, recruitment and development in my view (and I could tell you some really telling things about our academy scouting system and approach). We have a failing recruitment team. We chop and change management and approach ever more regularly. It continues to fail.

I don't think it is earth shattering to suggest that we build a team on finding rough diamonds and our academy, implement a playing style or DNA that doesn't change direction every time we change manager and plan accordingly. I really don't.
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Indeedido Posted on 02/12/2019 12:26

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Ajax are easily the biggest club in the Netherlands and are the capital city's only significant club. Yet for their scale and financial advantage they don't even dominate Dutch football.

Other clubs much closer to home have successfully adopted a strategy of Academy excellence supported by astute buying and selling, enabled by high calibre scouts, recruitment, coaching and management.
It is not new within England.
I do agree Adi that success depends on quality people in role making the decisions, which leads us back to our predicament.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 12:28

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Adi, I think we're trying to do exactly that, but that its just not so easy.
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Nero Posted on 02/12/2019 12:49

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The club is a bit of a joke and has been for years. Things only seemed professional for a brief period with Karanka.

I remember Mowbray stating the club didn't have a joined up Recruitment Policy when he took over. For a Football Club to operate like that is shocking.

We all like to laugh at Sunderland but in reality we are just like them.
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 12:50

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
It's not easy when your leader sticks by a recruitment team that is singularly failing by any objective measure, makes no improvements to the academy scouting and development system which has failed to produce anyone of any real note for many years and then appoints an inexperienced, under qualified novice to the top job in the club.

I think people are getting hung up on Ajax. It's a shorthand I am using. I am not drawing a direct comparison. The problems isn't that the approach is difficult, the problem is in the competence of the people appointed to deliver it.
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Indeedido Posted on 02/12/2019 12:53

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Back to agreement then Adi. The problem lies in the decision making by the leader at the Club...and has been for a very long time now.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 12:56

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Still want him out then Indeedido? You repeatedly acknowledge that the club isn't an attractive investment for anyone. So what's the solution? He can't sack himself.
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 12:59

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The solution is for him to acknowledge his failings, to release control of football matters to someone that knows what they are doing and let them get on with the job of appointing competent people in the key positions.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 13:03

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Why would he get that appointment right tho Adi? If he's so incompetent, wouldn't he just make a hash of that as well (and be blamed for it)?
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dooderooni Posted on 02/12/2019 13:19

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
It's a Catch 22 atypical, but at the risk of sounding very Zen, we have to take a first step on a new journey at some point.

We hardly hear anything about Kenyon these days and I'd suggest that if Gibson took some counsel from someone like him then he'd have a far greater chance of making the changes we need to. We need to break free from the pattern and if it goes a bit awry, as I still insist it did with Karanka, then you don't just give up. Aitor and his setup was successful for the most part and we should have stuck to the same model, at least for a time to see if it was repeatable. We literally purged the club of all those principles and ideas.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 13:26
Edited On: 02/12/2019 13:30
Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I think he got rid of Aitor because he thought the team was divided and that Agnew could 'unite' them, and that was all they needed to stay up for another season and hopefully beyond. He played a different hand to the one he played when relegated under Southgate, and some fans would never have forgiven him if he'd yet again not rolled the dice in the run in.

He was either wrong that that was all they needed, or Agnew failed to unite them. Either way it was a bad appointment, but I don't think Karanka was keeping us up personally and I didn't disagree with the change.

He's constantly been criticised over the years for being too loyal to managers, yet when he makes a ruthless change occasionally (like that one), he's criticised too.

If he appointed a DoF, he would still be criticised if it didn't bring about more or less instant success. If he gets managerial and scouting appointments so wrong, he's likely to get that wrong too.

I've genuinely no doubt he'd sell the club immediately if someone he felt would do the right thing by it was waiting to buy, but I really doubt they are.
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uncle_rico Posted on 02/12/2019 13:29

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Kenyon was last seen trying to pull a consortium together to buy the Geordies.

I don't think he's still involved with Boro, although I know he was at a game with Gibson at the back end of last season.
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atypical_boro Posted on 02/12/2019 13:32

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
TBF Gibson might speak to Kenyon on whatsapp every night of the week. How would any of us know.
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 13:35

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
There are no guarantees that he would get it right atypical but you asked what he should do. He owns the club and it is unlikely that there are any buyers out there and so in that context it's the only viable option I see. Criticism of Gibson is a very new and uncomfortable thing for me, just ask Indeedido, but it's undeniable now. He continues to make awful decisions and ultimately you have to call a spade a spade.
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Indeedido Posted on 02/12/2019 16:26

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Its actually never been comfortable for me either Adi, I just perhaps saw through Gibson a bit earlier that's all.

For what its worth, I will always be grateful to Gibson for his energy, ambition and what it brought us, together with a huge financial commitment back in 2012-16 which saved the club.
He simply has to step aside from making the key strategic decisions and appointments, as Adi rightly pinpoints.
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Derek_Duvall Posted on 02/12/2019 16:29

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
The Gazette headline tonight seems to hint that Woody ain't go anywhere.

However, no quotes and a lot of tub thumping. They think Johnson is a defender and that the fans are backing Woodgate home and away! Mmkay!
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Adi_Dem Posted on 02/12/2019 19:30

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
I think thatís probably right Indeedido in terms of seeing things clearly sooner. I think he earned a lot of leeway and he deserves not to have his legacy tainted. Thereís a real danger of that now.
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Nobby_Barnes Posted on 02/12/2019 20:20

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
You lot live in Cloud Cuckoo land...

Gibson is putting in £1 MILLION a month into the club, without him we would be in dire financial straights.

...and you think he should step aside from making decisions ?

You wanted Pulis out, look what happened !

Now you want Gibson out...It beggars belief, do you really want you end up like Bolton or Bury ???

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BoroFur Posted on 02/12/2019 20:25

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Just let this sink in for a moment:-

17th May 2019

'Tony has ensured that the club is stable and strong for the future, he leaves us in excellent condition,' says the Boro chairman

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uncle_rico Posted on 02/12/2019 20:37

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Steve Gibson is putting £1m in a month, or the holding company of Gibson OíNeil is?

There is a big difference.
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Nobby_Barnes Posted on 02/12/2019 20:40

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Not really, where do you think the money comes from...the magic money tree ??
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Indeedido Posted on 02/12/2019 21:53

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Do you not read anything Nobby?
Despite the horrific decision making of especially the last 3 years, critics still have some affection and gratitude for Gibson, or at least what he has done in the past.
Nobody takes pleasure in calling him out and most of us still realise that we are stuck together at the minute because of the financial position the club is in.
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Nobby_Barnes Posted on 02/12/2019 22:05

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Gibson has ran the club fantastically well since 1986 and has continued to bank roll the club with his own money.
He knows that football is cyclical and the good times will be back but at the moment we have to cut our cloth.

It's easy to sit on your device and criticise Pulis Downing Gill Fletcher etc etc etc.

You get one target out and move onto the next, now its Gibson's turn.

Toxic 'supporters' negative about everything and everybody [V]

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Indeedido Posted on 02/12/2019 23:26

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
He didn't run the club in 86 Nobby you tool. He became Chairman and Owner in 1994.

We really don't like each other Nobby, but at least get your facts right; I defended Downing to lots of people for a very long time.
If you want to defend pulis, Gill and Fletcher crack on. You and hopeless are in a demented gang of two
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Nosmo-King Posted on 02/12/2019 23:47

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Bobby, hold this thought. If Gibbo is putting that much into the club wouldn't it indicate to you we are far from a well run club? We made a minor profit when in the Prem, squandered millions on poor signings, gone through 4 managers in a short time, have no interest in attracting new/ lapsed fans, have made error after error.

Become a Bolton? Possibly. But the man responsible for this is the man you defend - Gibbo.

The once Messiah is leading us on a very dangerous path through incompetence and financial mismanagement on a major scale. WAKE UP!
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JonJon Posted on 03/12/2019 08:39

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Of course there is a lot of residual affection and regard for Gibson, and rightly so. We wouldn't have a club without him.

But times change, situations change, people change. Someone who used to be the rock that everything was built on can become a liability.

Gibson needs to appoint a proper manager to make sure we stay in this division, because things will be much harder if we don't, and then he needs to get someone competent in to run the club and take a step back.

There you go... it's as simple as that. What could possibly go wrong?
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Nobby_Barnes Posted on 03/12/2019 09:31

Iím beginning to wonder whether...
Nosmo, it was the managers that selected and signed the players not Gibson !

I certainly don't 'not' like you Indeedidoom, I enjoy pointing out the positives while you focus on the negative.

Nothing wrong with differences in opinion [^]
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