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Alvez_48 Posted on 21/10/2019 09:03
If it's such a good deal..
 
Surely it's really simple... We have a good deal apparently so extend article 50 have a confirmatory referendum on it and see..

You could even have it as a run off so you ask people to put preference and have no deal on there too.

It could lay out like this:-

The deal negotiated
No deal
Remain

You put 1st and 2nd pref and its first to 50%

So say it's 40% remain, 25% no deal, 35% deal after round 1.

You tally up the 2nd pref of the no deal votes to get to a definitive winner.

That way surely everyone is covered.

Can anyone tell me why this would be a bad idea?

We now know the versions of what brexit looks like we can campaign on the issues 'honestly' and then whatever wins can be immediately enacted...
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Exiled_in_herford Posted on 21/10/2019 09:05

If it's such a good deal..
Or should it be 2 options?.

No deal and this deal?. Surely that would be the correct way to do it.

Why does remain have a seat at the table?.
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clive_road_stamper Posted on 21/10/2019 09:07

If it's such a good deal..
Because theres 2 remain options and 1 leave option.

Current deal is Brexit - name only. Thats why the EU look like they got 2 lots of cream.

Remain.

Ireland is just too complex with the danger of bombs and bullets. No one wants that.

Remain
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Funky_Chicken Posted on 21/10/2019 09:24

If it's such a good deal..
Presumably because remain would romp home ?




🐔
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1finny Posted on 21/10/2019 09:28

If it's such a good deal..
Q 1
Remain or leave
Q 2 (only relevant if leave wins)
Deal or no deal.

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Exiled_in_herford Posted on 21/10/2019 09:32

If it's such a good deal..
Just Q2 as far I can see finny. No need to ask Q1 as we've been shown the answer by the electorate from both the referendum and the last General election.
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bear66 Posted on 21/10/2019 09:34

If it's such a good deal..
Have remain and no deal in the vote. 66% required to get either through. If neither reaches 66%, the latest deal gets accepted as a compromise.

Forces extremes to get a 2/3 majority to pass.
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1finny Posted on 21/10/2019 09:36

If it's such a good deal..
We see what we want to see Exiled
Loads of arguments for having remain on the ballot. You don’t agree - fair enough
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 21/10/2019 09:46

If it's such a good deal..
We've had almost four years since we were asked. Time we were asked again. OP. makes sense, more choice on offer.
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gazzastrip2 Posted on 21/10/2019 09:47

If it's such a good deal..
Or add another one: Remain but only if EU brings in reforms?

This would have been my preference but was never an option. I think the EU had a chance to make some changes as per Tony Blairs various interviews, but obviously didn't want too or wont want to look at it until the need for change becomes more pressing?

This in effect is the problem with Brexit as we all want different things in our ideal worlds and nothing is going to satisfy everyone, or it seems anyone!

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almeria2005 Posted on 21/10/2019 09:48

If it's such a good deal..
Exile Which party won a majoriy for leave in the general election
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 09:49

If it's such a good deal..
"Why does remain have a seat at the table?."

because the original referendum only won by tallying the votes from at least 2 diametrically opposed outcomes into a single vote, and remain was always the most supported option, that's why! I thought that was obvious.
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 09:51

If it's such a good deal..
"Because theres 2 remain options and 1 leave option."

come again? No deal and Boris's deal are both methods of revoking our EU membership and therefore fulfil the requirement of leave the EU. That is the fact, anything else is just your conjecture.

It's also a fact that many leave voters believed VoteLeave when they repeatedly stated we will not leave the single market, and therefore your view of brexit is a theft of their vote. That isn't democracy.
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 09:54

If it's such a good deal..
"Have remain and no deal in the vote. 66% required to get either through. If neither reaches 66%, the latest deal gets accepted as a compromise."

Why 66%, why not 50% and you win? That is a guarantee that Boris's deal will get through. There are far fairer ways of doing this.
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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 09:55

If it's such a good deal..
As a leave voter and a democrat, you should ask two questions

Leave or remain

If leave wins deal or no deal

Binding result

I really don’t understand why people who claim to be democratic are against democracy. Lots of water has gone under the bridge, some people have changed their minds on both sides, new people will have the vote too.

If Boris Johnson and others are entitled to change their minds (he voted twice against Mays deal then once for it) in the space of days, why is it wrong for the public to confirm they are happy?

The reason people are objecting is not because it is anti democratic, it is because some leave voters fear brexit will be lost. Personally, I think it would be confirmed and it would put to bed all the nonsense once and for all.

It is a shame that politicians and some leavers declare democracy as a reason to suggest a public vote would be anti-democratic when over 3 and a quarter years have passed. I really do not see what is to fear, even if the vote were remain.... democracy would be the winner.
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 09:56

If it's such a good deal..
I would adjust that slightly Finny.

Q1) Accept or reject Boris's deal
Q2) Accept or reject No Deal

Q2 only matters if accept Boris deal loses. If accept both of those lose, then we revoke A50 as we do not have a consensus on how to leave. Simple.
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TrickBag Posted on 21/10/2019 09:56

If it's such a good deal..
I agree with gazzastrip2[^]

TLP were the party of 'Remain and Reform' so...

* What are the reforms?

* How will you get them

* What will you do if you don't get them?

Get all that on a ballot paper[:O]
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TrickBag Posted on 21/10/2019 09:58

If it's such a good deal..
Or alternatively...

i. Enact the first result

ii. Have another referendum in 3 1/2 years time.
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Exiled_in_herford Posted on 21/10/2019 09:58

If it's such a good deal..
"Exile Which party won a majoriy for leave in the general election"

None, however if you add up the votes for the electorate that voted for parties that said they would honour the referendum result then you have a pretty big landslide result. Or do you have another set of results I can take a look at?.
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boromike85 Posted on 21/10/2019 10:11

If it's such a good deal..
Does anyone genuinely believe that having a referendum would solve anything? This isn't the end of brexit, we will still have to negotiate a trade deal. Another leave result would just end with the same people arguing against any sort of trade deal that doesn't include being in the single market and customs union. It would only benefit remain voters because there's a chance of remain winning and remain would be the only definitive answer. Anything else will just be more MPs claiming they have respected this new result and then trying to rejoin before the transition period is over. If there were any guarantees that wouldn't happen then maybe it could work but I doubt it.

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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 21/10/2019 10:23

If it's such a good deal..
ii the three and a half years has arrived
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We_Will Posted on 21/10/2019 10:31

If it's such a good deal..
Exiled.... Spot on. The people voted to leave. Just get on with it.
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bear66 Posted on 21/10/2019 10:35

If it's such a good deal..
"Why 66%, why not 50% and you win? "

That is what any binding deal should need. But it is also a compromise that at least either 'side' won fair and square.

I would hope the British people aren't so stupid next time.

If the deal gets passed by default, it will set the political scene for the softest of leave future arrangements.
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RexKramer Posted on 21/10/2019 10:36

If it's such a good deal..
Agree with gazzastrip2 too. Would have preferred 52/48 the other way. Voted leave too but as the old man has turned into a rabid leaver despite moving to Spain since the referendum I suppose my leave vote cancels out his remain vote.
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Alvez_48 Posted on 21/10/2019 10:47

If it's such a good deal..
Ok so... The 66% wouldn't be fair on remainers because they could rightly argue that 52% won the first time round.

To those saying why remain on it at all... 1. People have changed their mind in both directions and 2. It can now be clearly shown what leaving means. So you can't make claims like £350,000,000 a week to the NHS.

I'm saying this as an undecided voter and I know the above paragraph makes it look like I'm pro remain but honestly I'm not. I'm just trying to get a fair on all sides option out there.

If everyone is confident that they have the support then surely it's a no brainer.

It feels like Clive and exhiled are scared that the second vote goes against them? Would you both accept that. It's not a sign of weakness just an observation

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Alan_Breck Posted on 21/10/2019 10:49
Edited On: 21/10/2019 11:20
If it's such a good deal..
The problem, as I see it, is two thirds of the 650 MPs are Remainers and although all parties stated that they would abide by the In/Out referendum they have not kept to their word. Phil Wilson, Sedgefield, is my totally inept MP who votes however Corbyn tells him to despite the Sedgefield constituency voting for Leave by a massive margin. Why do our politicians think they know better than the electorate? Why are they not adhering to the will of the people or constituents?

Suppose there is another referendum, which now looks likely, and there's the identical 52/48 split to leave the EU, what then will Labour and the Lib Dems find in the small print to thwart and push the bar ever higher for the leave campaign. The best of three referenda, or best of five, beckons.

Only a General Election can sort out this mess by having one party with a majority to see that new result through. What a shambles, and my faith in our democracy decreases daily.

#UTB
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 10:53

If it's such a good deal..
"As a leave voter and a democrat, you should ask two questions

Leave or remain

If leave wins deal or no deal"

You cannot leave with a deal AND leave with no deal at the same time!. Deal and no deal are mutually exclusive, so why are you lumping them together as the same thing?

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Alvez_48 Posted on 21/10/2019 10:54

If it's such a good deal..
But Alan.. if it was 52 (for either the deal or no deal) you can immediately implement the result because it's on an actual specific outcome, do you know what I mean?

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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 11:24

If it's such a good deal..
“You cannot leave with a deal AND leave with no deal at the same time!. Deal and no deal are mutually exclusive, so why are you lumping them together as the same thing?”

Boromart, I am not sure why you have interpreted my comment that way, I never said you could leave with a deal and no deal at the same time [?]

Q1 Leave or Remain
Q2. Johnsons treaty or no deal

Q2. Would only be relevant if or when Leave wins via Q1.

Q2 allows everyone to have their say in how we leave if or when the majority vote leave at Q1.

You then leave on either Johnsons treaty agreed or you leave on no deal terms (wto) depending on the majority vote.

If having agreed to leave and how you withdraw, you begin to negotiate a new trade deal however long that takes.
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 11:28
Edited On: 21/10/2019 11:29
If it's such a good deal..
coluka your initial Q1 adds 'no deal' and 'leave with deal' as a single option and rejects remain. Why? If deal and no deal are different then why are you adding them together in a single vote? You would be just as justified in saying:

Q1) Deal OR Remain Vs. No Deal
Q2) Deal Vs. Remain

But I don't agree with that either, because you can't remain and leave with a deal at the same time either. Binary options should not group mutually exclusive things together, that is undemocratic.

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Alvez_48 Posted on 21/10/2019 11:38

If it's such a good deal..
Coluka my run off plan make more sense than your run off plan if you think about it
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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 11:40

If it's such a good deal..
Boromart for clarity

I am suggesting that in order to cut through the mess we need to find out some 3 yrs and 4 months later (nearly 4 yrs by it could happen) two things given increased knowledge, understanding and knowing the options.
1. Does the country want to leave still or remain
2. If the country wants to leave does it wish to do so with Johnsons withdrawal agreement or on a just leave without agreement basis.

To do so you have a referendum asking 2 questions
Q1. Do you wish to remain within the EU or Leave?
Q2. If leave were to win the vote, would you prefer the country leave on the terms of Johnsons treaty or on a non agreement no deal basis

That way it is clear everyone has had a say on how the country leaves if leave wins again.

Once you have left you then operate on either Johnsons treaty terms or WTO terms for trade until such time any new trade deals are in place.

I accept my initial posting was rushed but I have stated this several times over the last year on here and that I half expected most would know what i was saying. Hope that clears it up.
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 11:52

If it's such a good deal..
"1. Does the country want to leave still or remain
2. If the country wants to leave does it wish to do so with Johnsons withdrawal agreement or on a just leave without agreement basis."

Define leave first otherwise you are kicking remain off the table based on mutually exclusive options together being more popular, that isn't democratic, it's skewed.

We are in this mess for one reason, leave was ambiguous, and on purpose so that mutually exclusive benefits could all be stated, without any ability to put proper scrutiny. This allowed leave to win, then 3rd parties to steal moderate votes to try and undemocratically enforce a hard leave.

It's like going to a pub, offering to get a round in and saying do we want 10 beers or something else. 6 people vote something else. When you get 10 coffees 9 people aren't going to be happy, the tea-totaller is chuffed though, but apparently that's democracy.
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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 11:59

If it's such a good deal..
It is very clear that if vote to leave wins again it will be on the basis of the 2 options stated, there is only one treaty option on offer so you leave on Johnsons treaty or no agreement WTO terms and either way you have to then negotiate a deal moving forward as the EU will not discuss any future trade until the withdrawal is decided on.

There is no other way. Anyone voting remain also has a say on which method of withdrawal the country has to take. It is democratic, to suggest it is not is odd as everyone has a say on both questions.
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 12:35

If it's such a good deal..
3 scenarios put them in a straight vote vs each other....that is democratic. Don't skew it adding votes together for two different outcomes.
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bear66 Posted on 21/10/2019 12:46

If it's such a good deal..
"The 66% wouldn't be fair on remainers because they could rightly argue that 52% won the first time round."

It didn't win as it was not a legally binding vote. Even if the 'vote' in Parliament passes today, it isn't THE VOTE as it will have to be enacted as an ACT, something the original referendum was not given with that importance.
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BigmetsBoro86 Posted on 21/10/2019 12:48

If it's such a good deal..
If its such a good deal....

Thought this was going to be about buying Saville[;)]
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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 12:56

If it's such a good deal..
3 votes is just adding to confusing and splitting the leave vote, that is ridiculously skewed as I suspect you well know. Only a hardened remainer would suggest that daft method

My suggestion is unambiguous and not skewed on leave or remain, it is fair, democratic and relevant for the times. As a leaver myself, I think it is very fair and democratic and it allows remain a second chance following improved awareness and knowledge of the two leave options, hardly ambiguous.

Q1. Straight decision leave or remain how is that skewed?
If leave wins the 2nd answer comes into play, but only then
Q2. Johnsons deal or No agreement.

Everyone, leavers and remainers have an equal say in how we leave if leave wins, that is as democratic as can be.

You could argue remainers would potentially vote for a deal rather than not, but some may be worried about the barrier down the north sea and want ireland with us all the way. It is as unskewed as you can get imho. Unlike a 3 way option as you stated
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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 13:10

If it's such a good deal..
“Coluka my run off plan make more sense than your run off plan if you think about”

I have thought about it alvez, but I dont think it does in all honesty. It has the potential to be fair, it also has the potential to be unfair.

What if the vote was
48% Remain
30% No deal
22% Johnsons deal

Of the 52% that want to leave in some form,
You are unlikely to get no dealers second option being remain. However, you might get some of the 22% wanting to leave with a deal voting for remain as a 2nd choice through fear of a no deal, so despite wanting to leave they end up remaining. It could create more anger and not help bring the country together
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boromike85 Posted on 21/10/2019 13:49

If it's such a good deal..
"We are in this mess for one reason, leave was ambiguous, and on purpose so that mutually exclusive benefits could all be stated"

The question was set by remainer Cameron. It was a question he was too arrogant to believe he would be on the wrong side of but it was still set by him. It wasn't a leave conspiracy and it was voted for by the vast majority of parliament as acceptable.

Maybe they should have another vote on whether they wanted to ask us the question in the first place since they know so much more than they did then...

As above, how could leave win a second referendum and guarantee losers consent when they didn't receive it last time? A leave win would still have remainers arguing for a trade deal as close to remain as possible. They'll never let it go so it can't be a fair vote.

Also, if you can't see that Remain v 2 Leave options on the same ballot with a highest vote wins outcome isn't rigged so only 1 result is possible then there's no hope.
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changingman Posted on 21/10/2019 16:22

If it's such a good deal..
I'd highly doubt that deal/no deal would be an option.

There was an outcry that people didn't know what they were voting for last time, I don't see how this simplifies it.

Rightly or wrongly I think any confirmatory referendum would be whichever deal is finally negotiated vs remain. Essentially take this leave or not (otherwise you run the risk of a further referendum every time a deal is negotiated?)
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Ian_Tony_Kenrose Posted on 21/10/2019 17:01

If it's such a good deal..
What surprises me in the whole Brexit process is that the Remain leaning politicians and the EU (who want us to stay) have not made any effort to come up with a credible alternative to Brexit, that respects and even addresses some of the views of the 17.4m people who expressed their displeasure with our current EU membership.

I'm a staunch remainer, but the argument of "remaining is better than leaving because Brexit is dangerous"(however true or not true that may be) has failed over the last 3 years, plus the initial campaign. Yet they've failed to find a different narrative.

There were a lot of people who voted against the status quo, that can't and shouldn't be ignored IMO.

I would then have a final referendum that puts forward:
- Leave - and this is what the relationship will be with Europe outside the UK's membership of the EU (the current deal)
- Remain - and here's what the new relationship would be with the UK retaining it's membership of the EU.

Maybe if the EU and remain politician's put forward an alternative 'remain' EU relationship that may win over some leave voters.
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Uncle_Marbles Posted on 21/10/2019 17:05

If it's such a good deal..
That sounds too sensible though [^]
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Ian_Tony_Kenrose Posted on 21/10/2019 17:06

If it's such a good deal..
Exactly, and it's far too late in the process now.

Might have worked though.

Maybe next time [^]
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Uncle_Marbles Posted on 21/10/2019 17:08

If it's such a good deal..
Parliament would go into complete meltdown [:D]
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borophilos Posted on 21/10/2019 17:13

If it's such a good deal..
Just get it over with ffs.

Does it matter what the deal is its not like were not going to talk to our European neighbours ever again. There will be lots of agreements on all sorts of things as the need arises from both sides.

Let the country move on seriously.
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coluka Posted on 21/10/2019 17:18

If it's such a good deal..
Ian, the current deal does not answer what our future relationship will be with the EU. It is merely a withdrawl agreement, a treaty, not a deal. Politicians are cleverly using the term deal when it really isn’t a deal.

May was far too stupid when she served article 50 all of parliament was stupid to vote to allow the government to do so. They should have been bright enough to realise an amendment was needed that forced the Government to agree what brexit deal would be sought and get parliamentary approval first, before then serving article 50 and starting talks. She wasted a year or so in arguing the toss with her own ludicrously fissured party.
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Ironops Posted on 21/10/2019 17:27
Edited On: 21/10/2019 17:28
If it's such a good deal..
have a referendum at the end of the transition period, when we have negotiated the free trade agreement etc.

there is no democratic argument against another referendum - people only argue against it as they think they might lose.

back in may after the euro elections the govt didnt want a GE. It wont solve anything they said, its the last thing we need.

Now they are seemingly ahead in the polls they suddently want one. funny that...[8)]

Exiled didnt vote in the 2016 referendum but now wants to stop everyone else doing the same!
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TrickBag Posted on 21/10/2019 17:35

If it's such a good deal..
Absolutely correct I_T_K[^]

Nobody was offering the status quo. All Remainers stood on a platform of remain and reform.

There were so many options on both sides it had to come down to stay or leave.

Leave won.
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Wev1 Posted on 21/10/2019 17:42

If it's such a good deal..
"borophilos
Just get it over with ffs.

Does it matter what the deal is its not like were not going to talk to our European neighbours ever again. There will be lots of agreements on all sorts of things as the need arises from both sides.

Let the country move on seriously."

This is the exact point in what we shouldn't be doing, there is no "just getting it over with", not with this balls deal, that will likely end in no deal after the transition period.

There would be agreements, the point is they could take years/ decades and most that know most about these things area saying we would likely end up in a far worse position economically than we are now. Why the rush to do that?

The repercussions could last decades, so "letting the country move on" could be like letting the country throw itself off a cliff, and doing it every day for the next 5-30 years.

Everything on the planet is going to die one day, it doesn't mean that everything might as well just die now to get it over with or move on.
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Uncle_Marbles Posted on 21/10/2019 17:51
Edited On: 21/10/2019 17:54
If it's such a good deal..
"they could"
"will likely"
"could be"
"would likely "
"could last"
when has anything great been achieved without a little leap of faith eh
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Ironops Posted on 21/10/2019 18:19

If it's such a good deal..
Potentially trashing your economic model, risking your security cooperation and causing a massive rift in society is one hell of a leap of faith!
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Uncle_Marbles Posted on 21/10/2019 19:00
Edited On: 21/10/2019 19:03
If it's such a good deal..
"Potentially"
It is all ifs, buts and possibles.
Who says it is going to cause a massive rift in society ffs. IT might even bring it together!!
However, we were absolutely going to fall off a cliff and economic chaos would happen, as soon as the brexit result was announced. [rle]
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Muttley Posted on 21/10/2019 19:20

If it's such a good deal..
"...as soon as the brexit result was announced"

Not true.
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plazmuh Posted on 21/10/2019 19:32

If it's such a good deal..
Im of the opinion without Fake Media you would

not have anything to talk about..

True Story nall
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borophilos Posted on 21/10/2019 19:44

If it's such a good deal..
@ Wev1

I know mate but the in fighting and not knowing is just as bad. Absolutely sick to the back teeth of hearing about it.

Although what I dont get!

Why dont the government start recognising things that we import atm that we ould produce on our own shores.

Offer loans to businesses to upgrade their potential to fill the void. Introduce packages for new businesses to start up and produce some products that we currently import etc etc.

I know it may be only a small portion but im sure there must be opportunities to be more self sustainable and help our own industries.
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TokyoJoe Posted on 21/10/2019 19:50

If it's such a good deal..
If it's such a bad deal why don't Labour call an election and when they win they can have as many renegotiations and referendums as they like?
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Matt07 Posted on 21/10/2019 19:53

If it's such a good deal..
The current bunch of MPs can't make a decision over the brexit dilemma. Time to change the MPs out, GE and let the people decide, change the numbers in the HOC one way or the other job done.
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boroskel65 Posted on 21/10/2019 20:55

If it's such a good deal..
12 Rounds of Boxing, Queensbury rules, Saturday night, Parliament Square, under the lights, Ladeeeeeeees and Gentlemen, winner takes all contest, representing remain Alistair Campbell and in the hard blue corner Williammm Rrrrreeeeece Moggggg.
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plazmuh Posted on 21/10/2019 21:00

If it's such a good deal..
This is also planned for the E/U prison Zone..

Be careful for what you wish..

see link

Link: xxx
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Boromart Posted on 21/10/2019 22:59
Edited On: 21/10/2019 23:01
If it's such a good deal..
coluka, your options STILL give an advantage to leave, because remain will get knocked out by anyone wanting a Norway model, a canada model, Boris deal, no deal. All of those discrete options will get added together and used as a single vote against Remain. There is no justifiable democratic reason to do that.


Do it the other way round. First get you leave voters to decide what the hell leave means. Have your vote to decide which of those options are the unified definition of No Deal.

Then run the winning "leave" option against remain.

Remain will of course win, because it is comfortably the most favoured of any of the discrete options.
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Starbuck Posted on 21/10/2019 23:14

If it's such a good deal..
Referendum on Boris deal of remain.
If Boris deal wins then it can be enacted.

If remain wins he can call a GE and each party can choose a defined policy they think represents the public's opinion. Will be good to see Tories fall in a no deal policy
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Aqualung Posted on 22/10/2019 08:11

If it's such a good deal..
sick of hearing its the peoples choice to leave the EU

1x5th of the population doesn't represent the 'people'

Lets face reality here,

A.Half the country didn't vote because they had no idea of the implications

B.The people who did vote thought they would get a Norway type deal, not be worse off than they are now, what kind of psychopath would vote to be worse off
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coluka Posted on 22/10/2019 08:21

If it's such a good deal..
“coluka, your options STILL give an advantage to leave, because remain will get knocked out by anyone wanting a Norway model, a canada model, Boris deal”

There was no mention of Canada or Norway etc in my question Boromart.

If Leave won it was Boris deal or no deal that was the choice. In my opinion what would happen would be most remainers ticking the boris deal rather than no deal so boris deal more likely if Leave won again. If no deal won, then it would be up to parliament to negotiate the best brexit for the country.

An election would occur soon after the people would decide the party or make up of parliament to then sort out no deal or boris treaty or revoke Article 50 if needs be
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Wev1 Posted on 22/10/2019 08:54

If it's such a good deal..
"I know mate but the in fighting and not knowing is just as bad. Absolutely sick to the back teeth of hearing about it."

We all are, and the wait/ wasted time is ridiculous, but we only have ourselves to blame for that, it's 100% our fault, not the EU's. The problem is, it's our inept government/ system that will need to rebuild it all. It's like asking a baby to build the empire state building, when they haven't yet proved they can get to a toilet instead of doing a dump in their pants.

As each day goes on, they're just being proven more and more inept, so hopefully this will all just get binned off or we leave and stay in the single market and CU for a few years whilst we sort our crap out. There's nothing stopping us from leaving and staying in the CU/ Single Market. Then if we decide that's not for us, then we can leave that too, once we can figure out the Ireland problem.

At least this dragging on is hopefully moving us away from "no deal", which everyone with half a brain and that doesn't have millions in the bank should be keen to avoid.

We could have said on Day 1, "look, we voted out, lets have a vote on which way the country would like us to leave". Could have had a vote on that within 3 months, then once the results were known we could have had another vote 3 months later asking. "Look, this is the version of leave we're going to get, do you want to go with this, or remain?"

"Why dont the government start recognising things that we import atm that we ould produce on our own shores."

Going deeper into manufacturing is not the solution for the UK, it's not now and it's certainly not if we're leaving the EU.

We're a tiny island, we don't have the raw materials to make practically anything, so those need importing.
We can't manufacture anything cheaply as a bloke with no experience, qualifications and a poor work history thinks he should be paid £10-15/ hr.
The above means that importing and manufacturing here would mean that the business would have no profit margin, or would make a loss, as similar items could be made in the EU/ further afield far cheaper. There's no point making something if you can't sell it or use it.

Manufacturing in the UK is done, even more so when we lose our access to cheap labour, as those at the bottom of the pile in the UK think they're too good for the menial jobs.
IP: Logged
plazmuh Posted on 22/10/2019 12:24

If it's such a good deal..
1 Fifth of the People actually bothered to go out

and register an opinion..

Thats the people who count on this occasion..

If you remainers could not be bothered even with

a postal option THATS YOUR OWN FAULT..

A second vote would not make you any happier either..

They understood they wanted out..

Maybe you should examine the ramifications of staying in

because its fairly obvios you are being led down a dark

path if you have not grasped what the E/U have in store

for you..

But alas The Media know all about the French Riots but

insist on telling you the only discontent is happening

in China..

The information is available from other sources other

than the Biased Lie machine the BBC or Gov Propoganda.inc
IP: Logged
plazmuh Posted on 22/10/2019 12:33

If it's such a good deal..
[xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]

Link: xxx
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atypical_boro Posted on 22/10/2019 12:47

If it's such a good deal..
As a remainer, I would agree that 'remain' should not be an option on any second referendum vote, as much as I would prefer to remain.

That said, once we're out, I fully expect there to be an immediate movement for us to rejoin, which might take a few years, but will definitely happen.

But I can't see how else we can democratically be in the EU.
IP: Logged
Doppelganger Posted on 22/10/2019 13:12

If it's such a good deal..
How can Remain NOT be on any ballot?
Remain IS the best option.
208 out of 228 polls since the Ref have been in favour of Remain.
If Remain is not on the ballot then it's
S**T Deal vs Even worse No Deal.
We may as well just give up now.
IP: Logged
Muttley Posted on 22/10/2019 14:31

If it's such a good deal..
IF we leave, we will rejoin within ten years.

Perhaps quicker.

The major problem I have with Brexit is the demographic driving it. If this was a decision made by the young people of this country I would be more inclined to accept it, this decision has been driven by a demographic dominated by angry disenfranchised old men.

We WILL be back.
IP: Logged
boromike85 Posted on 22/10/2019 14:43

If it's such a good deal..
"If this was a decision made by the young people of this country I would be more inclined to accept it".

Not true. The young are universally dismissed as inexperienced and unaware of how the world works. We all remember how we were when we were younger, whether that's 5, 10 50 years ago, and how much we have changed. Put it this way, would you trust yourself to make a decision now more than you'd trust yourself when you were 18, 20, 25? Remember how much more informed we all are now...

People always assume that people younger than them are inexperienced and people older than them are out of touch. Unsurprisingly this view changes as people move through those categories and all ages can be inexperienced or out of touch. Older people can be far more informed than younger people and when something fits an agenda we trot out old people that should be respected because they know best.

I'm not saying that young people's opinions aren't valid. I'm just saying that there isn't a cat in hell's chance that if you had voted the opposite way to them that you'd accept it (not that they all voted the same way anyway).
IP: Logged
atypical_boro Posted on 22/10/2019 14:44
Edited On: 22/10/2019 14:52
If it's such a good deal..
Whilst I don't disagree with that driver Muttley, everyone got one vote each, regardless of demographic. I don't think its right to effectively annul something, just because we perceive those who want it, a certain way (albeit probably very accurately).
IP: Logged
Muttley Posted on 22/10/2019 15:10

If it's such a good deal..
I didn't say it should be annulled I said it shouldn't be accepted as in it should be questioned, opposed and challenged throughout the process. Once we have defined what Brexit actually entails as in the deal that we will ACTUALLY get not what some lying prat has daubed on the side of a bus but the facts. We should have a confirmatory referendum.

The process has highlighted glaring weaknesses and problems in our democratic procedures.

1. We should have a written constitution

2. Favouring the products of wealth and privilege reduces the effective pool of politicians giving us the preponderance of useless "career" politicians on both sides of the house

3. The Monarchy is not effective as a head of state

4. We need to examine the undue influence that is a consequence of the concentration of media under a limited number of wealthy owners and whether it is right that the national broadcaster should be used by the Government of the day as a propaganda tool

5. Social Media and the way in which it can influence opinion and prejudice needs addressing
IP: Logged
TrickBag Posted on 22/10/2019 15:19

If it's such a good deal..
There are 'disenfranchised' in all demographics. The answer isn't to blame them or indulge in self-loathing but rather to ask why they are disenfranchised.

And if they are so powerful you should be trying to harness that power rather than alienate it.
IP: Logged
coluka Posted on 22/10/2019 15:21
Edited On: 22/10/2019 15:22
If it's such a good deal..
People are educated to various degrees by the state, once we leave school we start to develop life skills that fit our personal development and awareness through our social networks, chosen employment (or lifestyle choice as not everyone chooses work), our families, the media.
Common sense generally improves over time (but not always).

With ageing a degree of tolerance can be learned and you can become less impulsive and less judgemental though not always. There is no set rule or pattern our lifestyle choices and social interactions develop us all in positive and negative ways. Some of us are adaptable to change, others less so. It is therefore wrong to imply the old are brexiteers the young are remainers, it is total bollax.

The young do not know better than the old, the old don't necessarily know better than the young, we are all influenced by our upbringing, our development as a human, every day is an opportunity to learn, it is also an opportunity to ignore, no 2 people are the same no matter what age.

Lets be honest some people voted with their heart, some with their head, some out of anger and despair, some out of fear, some with hope and some with selfishness (on both sides of the debate). Lets not forget there were a good number who could not care less as they did not bother voting. If you waste your vote, don’t object to the outcome.

The most important thing to remember is that not one amongst us could ever truthfully say we have never changed our minds in our lives. We do so lots of times in all manor of major and minor things, be it on what to eat, what to wear, choice of colour of car, whether to Marry or Divorce, Move house or Job.

Politicians have constantly voted for and against the same deal or different deals on brexit. Nobody bats an eyelid that the people who will deny the people a confirmatory vote are allowed to change their minds and be openly hypocritical in their methods and views.

I have not changed my mind on leaving, but it is undemocratic and foolhardy not to check whether the country as a whole might just be in a different place to where the country was in June 2016 given all the more knowledge we have as individuals and let the people say if and, importantly how they want to leave, if in fact they still do.

Sovereignty was my main reason, The shenanigans of all MP’s whatever party or view do make me wonder and question my thinking of what may lie ahead whatever happens. I do know that an honourable politician is a dying breed, right honourable ones are almost extinct.

IP: Logged
atypical_boro Posted on 22/10/2019 15:23
Edited On: 22/10/2019 15:24
If it's such a good deal..
"I didn't say it should be annulled I said it shouldn't be accepted as in it should be questioned, opposed and challenged throughout the process."

I definitely agree with that and it has been/is being. But for me, the final result should still reflect the essence of the referendum, even if the net result is just crossing our star off the EU flag. At least then the 'angry old men' can't really vindicate their reasons for being so angry in the first place. Categorically overturn the result, though, and you can sort of see why they're so angry.
IP: Logged
redwurzel Posted on 22/10/2019 15:30

If it's such a good deal..
The only democratic second referendum is to refine the Leave option into Deal or No Deal.

The country has already had a People's Vote on Remain and it was rejected by 52% of those voting in 2016. Or was there a miscount?

I would vote for the Deal - its a poor deal but its better than any other options. We all have to compromise in some way. I would guess the majority of us had to think carefully before voting in 2016 i.e. it was not a black and white decision. Like many now I wish the Conservatives had not pushed into this situation in 2016 where we have such as divided nation.
IP: Logged
atypical_boro Posted on 22/10/2019 15:36

If it's such a good deal..
Agree with all of that redwurzel.[^]
IP: Logged
Muttley Posted on 22/10/2019 15:57

If it's such a good deal..
"The country has already had a People's Vote on Remain and it was rejected by 52% of those voting in 2016. Or was there a miscount?"

That was 2016, this is 2019 and we are nowhere near even identifying what it was that everyone who voted for Brexit actually believed they were voting FOR as opposed to what they were voting AGAINST.
IP: Logged
atypical_boro Posted on 22/10/2019 15:58

If it's such a good deal..
No one would doubt that the referendum was a gigantic phuq up Muttley, but the upshot of it is that the UK needs to leave the EU (by some recognisable measure) for its result to be/have been fulfilled in any way.
IP: Logged
Truelies Posted on 22/10/2019 16:00

If it's such a good deal..
So do we just discount any vote until we get a remain in vote??

IP: Logged
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