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Mfc79 Posted on 11/09/2019 21:31
Edited On: 12/09/2019 00:55Leaver turned remainer
 
 
I've never really had a particularly strong opinion on the matter and like most am sick to death of hearing the term Brexit (so I thought I would post yet another thread on the matter).

I voted leave in the referendum along with the two other voting aged people in our household. However, I've changed my mind and if there was another vote I would vote remain.

I can only speak from my perspective and for me I simply did not believe the warnings of the damage it would do to the economy. I expected it to hit quite hard in the short term and we would recover and benefit medium to long term. It still may pan out as such. The other issues I had is, like most people at the time of voting I never expected it to be anywhere near as complicated as it has been. Irish backstop. When was that ever mentioned pre-referendum? I'm not an expert in international trade agreements and contracts so the complexities of such issues are well beyond me. No-one mentioned at the time that our sick and vulnerable people may have to go without medicines. I didn't expect it to threaten the break up of the British Union. I didn't expect it to cause a Prime Minister to attempt to suspend parliament. I don't think any of this is because I'm uneducated or ignorant. I just don't think many people foreseen these issues to happen.

Listening to a lot of debates on the matter there seems to be a lot of people voicing opinions and forecasts as facts but I just don't think leaving the EU is worth the gamble or upset it has and will cause.

Just thought I would share that with you.
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Anton_Berg Posted on 11/09/2019 21:37

Leaver turned remainer

 
Unfamiar username. Is this what they call a 'shill'?
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TokyoJoe Posted on 11/09/2019 21:40

Leaver turned remainer

 
It's a Foomanboro pincer movement.
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Muttley Posted on 11/09/2019 21:44

Leaver turned remainer

 
Let google be your guide, let humility guide your apologies...

Link: Genuine long term poster proof
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dooderooni Posted on 11/09/2019 21:45

Leaver turned remainer

 
Well I recognise Mfc79 as being a fairly regular poster.
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Muttley Posted on 11/09/2019 21:48

Leaver turned remainer

 
Of course he is.

TokyoJoe though...
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elal1963 Posted on 11/09/2019 21:53

Leaver turned remainer

 
i dont really post. However i am a lomg lomg time member of FMTTM.
I voted leave but i too have changed my mind and would vote remain due to my own reasearch.
call me fickle but its my right to change my oppinion like everyone can.
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TrickBag Posted on 11/09/2019 21:55

Leaver turned remainer

 
Are you drunk Foo?
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Mfc79 Posted on 11/09/2019 21:56

Leaver turned remainer

 
Fair enough Anton. I've not really been on here much lately and have always avoided the Brexit debate. I was previously vuvuzelas before I lost my password [DFS]
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free_pint Posted on 11/09/2019 21:56

Leaver turned remainer

 
The exact reason why it should have always been assumed we would have a 2nd ref, after the original one if the answer was out, to see if peoples opinions had changed based on the outcomes. However, Cameron was too smug and believed he could walk on water.
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Mfc79 Posted on 11/09/2019 21:57

Leaver turned remainer

 
1963 [^]
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GazC_MFC Posted on 11/09/2019 22:26

Leaver turned remainer

 
I too voted leave, I would vote remain now
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keelo Posted on 11/09/2019 22:52

Leaver turned remainer

 
Anyone with half a brain cell wpuld vote remain, there are some thick cnuts in britain...brainwashed
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Richyboro Posted on 11/09/2019 22:54

Leaver turned remainer

 
I voted against goal music and look what happened! [xx(]
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HULLRED66 Posted on 11/09/2019 22:59

Leaver turned remainer

 
I voted to leave and are still waiting patiently for it to happen.
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JLinardi Posted on 11/09/2019 23:30

Leaver turned remainer

 
Its for all these reasons that the vote should be totally void, nobody knew what they were voting for.
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Boromart Posted on 12/09/2019 00:03
Edited On: 12/09/2019 00:10
Leaver turned remainer

 
"I voted to leave and are still waiting patiently for it to happen." - why do hardline Brexiteers always have a poor grasp of basic grammar?
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TrappaTony Posted on 12/09/2019 00:18

Leaver turned remainer

 
What a brilliant post mfc79 you sum up my attitude towards the whole dodgy Leave and Leave.EU campaigns as being full of misinformation, illegal social media manipulation and widespread deceptions. The interference by and collusion with the Russians is also very significant and worrying.

The biggest deception was that we would be able to have our cake and eat it, indeed it would be a piece of cake and nothing could be more further from the truth. Benefitting from EU membership whilst leaving and getting great trade deals with the rest of the world. The fact is we would be rule takers from the EU still and the other big economies in a world of trade wars and populist demagogues.
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RexKramer Posted on 12/09/2019 00:19
Edited On: 12/09/2019 00:27
Leaver turned remainer

 
Pretty much as the Op. I'd have taken a deal but that is looking unlikely now.

Has anyone started a thread on Yellowhammer?

Link: Yellowhammer
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Dibzzz Posted on 12/09/2019 00:58

Leaver turned remainer

 
Me too, you pretty much mirror my views.

I don't see the point of it now, there's no obvious benefit of leaving, non I can see or have heard of anyway, only distruption and a lot of chew if we do leave.

I'd vote remain in a heartbeat if we had another go at it.
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festa5 Posted on 12/09/2019 02:26

Leaver turned remainer

 
Nowt wrong with changing your mind chaps. It's your democratic right. Or at least it should be.

I wouldn't trust the likes of Farage as far as I can throw him. But I can see why you wouldn't trust dodgy Dave or the Gideot either.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 12/09/2019 06:30

Leaver turned remainer

 
Festa[^]
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 12/09/2019 07:10
Edited On: 12/09/2019 07:12
Leaver turned remainer

 
I know quite a few that have shifted, we chose a remainer at a recent job interview by using casual chit chat.
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Fabios_porkpie_provider Posted on 12/09/2019 07:22
Edited On: 12/09/2019 07:26
Leaver turned remainer

 
I didn’t vote first time round because I simply didn’t feel I could make an informed decision. I was completely open minded. I was living with a doctor and a director of a civil engineering firm at the time, both of whom were quite strongly in favour of leaving. They still didn’t really come up with a convincing argument for it and I was there to be convinced.

Now I’d vote remain, no doubt about it.
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Dustbin_Man Posted on 12/09/2019 07:41

Leaver turned remainer

 
I voted remain as I couldnt see what the benefits were for leaving. I had the approach of 'if it aint broke, dont fix it'.

However, with all the fiasco that has gone on over the past few years, I believe our relationship with the EU is now untenable to the point where we have to leave. We may be able to negotiate a better position within the EU but I doubt we will ever be accepted 100% especially whilst keeping our currency.

The bigger problem we'll face when we do leave is the incompetence of our politicians and their inability to run the country.

We're damned if we go and were damned if we stay. Its one big F**k up!!
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plazmuh Posted on 12/09/2019 07:59

Leaver turned remainer

 
This is not the opinion of a recent Poll..

But then again it is your Media..

So its up to you wether it factual or not..

[^][^]

Link: xxx
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Anton_Berg Posted on 12/09/2019 08:06

Leaver turned remainer

 
'we chose a remainer at a recent job interview by using casual chit chat.'

Or maybe they sussed you out first.

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festa5 Posted on 12/09/2019 08:44

Leaver turned remainer

 
"but I doubt we will ever be accepted 100% especially whilst keeping our currency."

I don't know about that. I think as net contributers we'll be quite well accepted.

I also think there's a bit of myth about how well the rest of the member states get on. We're not the only country with anti-EU sentiment amongst large parts of the population or who have anti-EU MEPs.

I think certain parts of the British media have found it suits their agenda to portray us as the 'outsider' and all the other countries as being thick as thieves, but it's not true. We have more in common with some member states than others and that's true of all members. I don't think any country feels it's a perfect institution by any stretch, although some are more enthusiastic about it than others.

It works because for all the differences between countries it makes us stronger working together than we would be working alone.
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Aqualung Posted on 12/09/2019 09:02

Leaver turned remainer

 
I think all that any rational UK national needs is some 'evidence' the the country will be better off in the long term with Brexit

The fact the general consensus is, 'we we slowly recover' etc, whats the XXXXXX point of that, making everything worse off just to prove a point

And theres the 'evil' EU laws that are holding us back that nobody can name, not even a single one, still waiting for a single EU law from any brexiteer that is somehow detrimental to us as a society

I have an opinion that brexiteers are unpatriotic, because the very concept of patriotism is wanting whats best for your country, not whats worse
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coluka Posted on 12/09/2019 09:03
Edited On: 12/09/2019 11:53
Leaver turned remainer

 
The whole debate is now farcical and polarised with people becoming more and more entrenched, blinkered and angry with anyone who has a different opinion.

Remainers are making brexiteers dig in which causes remainers to dig in and it is a vicious circle that people on the extremes of the argument are loving. It is what enables them to get away with their lies, their propaganda and as a leave voter this one being the worst “the will of the people”

Everyone seems entrapped in playing playground politics. What people should do is accept there are pro’s and cons all round and agree it is far from black and white whatever happens.

A deal is needed. An election will not solve the issue. The will of the people now will be different to the will of the people in June 2016. Everyone is better informed than before. Everyone will know whether they would wish to leave or remain in light of the updated facts, or whether they can’t be @r$ed and will abstain, in which case their view is irrelevant. The most democratic thing to do is to hold a confirmatory referendum.

It would be the easiest way for the Govt to get their wish. They keep saying the people want to leave even without a deal. Test it out. If it wins again, they remove the remainers argument once and for all. If remain wins, then the will of the people will have changed. Leavers in the centre areas will in the main be pragmatic and accept the situation. Only those on the extremes of the debate will still kick up a fuss either way imho. Democracy would win either way
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Cuthbert Posted on 12/09/2019 09:31
Edited On: 12/09/2019 13:37
Leaver turned remainer

 
.
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Cuthbert Posted on 12/09/2019 09:37

Leaver turned remainer

 
Agree Col. Good post. There certainly are pros and cons. The trouble is that over time remainers have forgotten the cons, and leavers have forgotten the pros!!

I voted remain, and still would do, but as Plazmuh points out, (link to a Telegraph article) that a recent poll shows a majority think the 1st referendum result should still be respected. Like you though, I don't see that holding a 2nd referendum is an affront to democracy. After all, it's over three years since the first one now!

My biggest gripe is how negative the Remain campaign was. It was always more Project Fear, than pointing out the positive benefits of the EU. (It still seems a bit way that inclined even now).

I also think that the 'worst case scenarios' that are being bandied about for a no deal Brexit could well be overdone. The trouble is, it's a gamble I guess. However, there will be contingency plans put in place.

As I said, I am a remainer and was happy being in the EU.... however, I also beleive that we could make a success of it if we leave - with or without a deal.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 12/09/2019 09:58

Leaver turned remainer

 
Not according to the OP, he's moved from one side to the other, as have a few commenting on this board.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 12/09/2019 10:02

Leaver turned remainer

 
Possibly Anton, it suited us anyway.
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Dick59 Posted on 12/09/2019 10:27

Leaver turned remainer

 
Gidion's budget from hell pushed me into the leave camp.
For the first time ever I will be going to the next labour activist meeting to see what I can do to repair the damage.
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AndyD13 Posted on 12/09/2019 10:37

Leaver turned remainer

 
Its the insidious way that billionaire hedge fund managers, friends of the current leadership etc are standing to make even more billions on the back of a hard Brexit that should be alarming to the public. That and the fact that one of the prime objectives behind Brexit is to protect the mega rich elite from the european unions attempts to shine a light on their tax avoidance schemes - again, that really should be a concern for the general public.
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 10:41

Leaver turned remainer

 
I didn't vote, I thought it was too complex and issue, I was sick of the scaremongering from both sides and I thought the government backing remain was a very poor decision, they should have been impartial and only presented the pros and cons for both.

I always vote, general elections, council and MP's. I have voted for Conservatives, Labour, Green and SNP in the past. I wouldn't vote SNP again after their grab for power and ignorance of values. I would never vote Conservative again and think a number of them should be up for treason. I would like to vote Green but it's a lost vote.

I think there should have been some fundamental rules before the referendum was undertaken. It should have needed a clear majority, there should have been an indication of what a deal or no deal scenario would pan out.

But overall, I think the fool Cameron should have been able to control his own party.

What we have not, is a fractured society, a fractured Parliament and a fractured Government.

The level of disinformation and outright lies from "interested" sources is a disgrace. Our press and the way it is ran and influences is the biggest disgrace of the lot - you only need to look at the chicken headlines - whilst the bumbling, out of touch, out of his depth Etonian carries on.

The thing I fear most is the unfair playing fields. Something needs to be done on how the press are able to manipulate, how social media is influencing and a strict charter of behaviour needs to be put in place. No more hysterical headlines, no more clear false accusations from red tops - if they break the rules, they are no longer allowed to report on politics. Opinion is fair enough but this goes far beyond this.

It's like the old "Labour spent the money, but the Conservatives are clawing it back from the scroungers" argument you get from working class Tories, my family included. Little realising the amount under paid in benefits is far outweighed by under claims, that the vast majority of benefit payments go to low paid working families, that the elite landowners and the company owners rake in as much is subsidies etc as the working classes.

It infuriates me how stupid headlines can influence what should be intelligent people - it's just XXXXXX lazy.

Before anyone votes, they should sign a declaration that they have read and understood the manifesto's, it should be a criminal offence not to do so.

I am sick of reading social media posts where it is clear that comments are from "bots" or "trolls" repeating and reinforcing the same old lies and clichés to the point that people think they are absolute fact.

I am sick of people going on about their democratic right and the will of the people, when its clears that the issues have shifted considerably since the referendum and failing to realise that their democratic rights are being eroded and reduced daily.

I am sick of people saying my MP isn't representing the people, discounting the votes of the millions who voted to remain.

I blame the EU, I blame the Conservatives and I blame the press for the mess we are in.

I am sick of decades of the government representing the elite and not the working classes. I am 44, I have never lived under a left of centre government. Why?

There may have been some positives in leaving the EU, although I am not sure what they are. But what I am clear on is that any benefits have been completing negated by the harm Brexit has done to our economy and society as a whole.

I am hoping that when this $hitstrom finally settles, it will herald a new dawn of transparent democracy where the best interests of society as a whole are the priority.

Greed and laziness have led us to where we are now.



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Ironops Posted on 12/09/2019 11:33

Leaver turned remainer

 
The vast majority or people sat in the middle and chose, on balance to vote one way or the other.

We dont hear much from them, we hear from those with a strong opinion either way.

So the idea that a majority of people will be angry/disenfranchised with any particular outcome is incorrect. Whatever the outcome the majority will just get on with things.

Whether I personally like that or not, I do believe thats the way it is.
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 11:45

Leaver turned remainer

 
And those are the people the press etc chose to influence. Those with strong views neither one way or the other are the easiest to manipulate.

The headlines about "benefit scroungers", "immigrants", "terrorist sympathiser" or "anti-Semitic" are aimed at those without strong views. But one those seeds are planted, they become increasingly difficult to dislodge or refute.

I am just baffled that people who have seen their life expectancy decrease, the future of their children gambled, erosion of public services and values, increase in crime, decrease in income can still think the Eton lot represent them.

I do think that Corbyn at times has played into "their" hands, has scored a few own goals and does not play the press as well as he should. He has at times been undermined by within his own party and I do wonder how much of this is "sleeper" based.

I do think though that the establishment would continue to undermine any socialist leader who had ambitions to reduce their wealth and power for the good of society as a whole.
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AndyD13 Posted on 12/09/2019 11:50

Leaver turned remainer

 
"I do think though that the establishment would continue to undermine any socialist leader who had ambitions to reduce their wealth and power for the good of society as a whole."

NAIL ON HEAD.
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festa5 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:10

Leaver turned remainer

 
Cracking posts GoNads.

It's frightening really and couldn't agree more about the media. I'm all for freedom of the press and free speech but a lot of what you see presented as "news" is propaganda and opinion. We understand a lot more about the effect it has on how people think these days, but still allow it to go on unchecked. Very hard to challenge it though without accusations of silencing the media etc.

Social media is another matter altogether and it's no secret that the law is struggling to keep up with technology.

The trick of course for the ruling classes is to keep most people just the right amount of "happy". Just enough so that even if they can spot the injustices etc it's simply not worth the effort to kick up enough of a fuss. They're pushing it a bit with brexit, but even then as long as people can still have their sky TV, holiday to Benidorm and Saturday night takeaway most people won't do much more than grumble.
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boromike85 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:11

Leaver turned remainer

 
They definitely would. That establishment includes businesses leaders who make similar doom and gloom predictions about a Corbyn government as they do brexit.

It'll be interesting to see the Corbyn fans decrying these so-called experts whose words they have taken as gospel to back up their opinions on brexit over recent years.
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erimus11 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:21

Leaver turned remainer

 
keelo:
"Anyone with half a brain cell wpuld vote remain, there are some thick cnuts in britain...brainwashed"

Some might read that statement as meaning that anyone with half a brain cell voted remain, those with a full brain cell voted leave....who would be the thick cnuts then?
However, I do know what you were saying, the usual bad mouthing and name calling of anybody daring to have a different view to yours
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 12:23

Leaver turned remainer

 
Festa5 - definitely the most infuriating aspect of it all. The vast majority are "comfortable", they could have it much better.

The way we over pay for literally everything, how we have to pay for everything twice or three times.

People who play video games, buy the game, then are shafted by in game purchases.

You pay for Sky, then there is Netflicks, Amazon.

We pay for Sky Sports for the football, then there is BT and now Amazon, plus the adverts we endure, plus the pay per views.

We pay for broadband, but then have to pay for a line and theres the mobile phone.

We owned the water companies, the rail, the gas and electiricy, BP, the mail, they were sold, the money has been wasted, the Elite cleared up and we pay more and more and we pay more than our European neighbours.

We are told we can't do that, we can't do this to help manufacturing but it is all lies.

We on one hand suck up to China for trade (5G, Powers stations etc.), yet are threatening military power whilst ignoring the human rights issues in the Uighur.

And we sit there and we take it, worse than that, through laziness and failure to educate yourself, many of us vote for that to continue in blissful ignorance. Because we have Sky, we have our XXXXXX processed food and takeaways and we can ignore our kids whilst we multi media all day on our over priced phones made in sweat shops in China.

Modern Life is rubbish, we are sheep.
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WeeGord Posted on 12/09/2019 12:31

Leaver turned remainer

 
go_nads owning the thread and really getting to grips with our messed up society. I too am sick of all the things you mention, but more than anything sick of the decent, normal working class people who are supporting this ridiculous Brexit lie.

I've said for the last 3 and a half years that if we do leave the EU, especially with no deal, there'll be an awful lot of people who voted to leave will deny it.
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Mfc79 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:34

Leaver turned remainer

 
"Anyone with half a brain cell wpild vote remain, there are some thick cnuts in Britain..brainwashed"

Hence

"The whole debate is now farcical and polarised with people becoming more and more entrenched, blinkered and angry with anyone who has a different opinion.

Remainers are making brexiteers dig in which causes remainers to dig in and it is a vicious circle that people on the extremes of the argument are loving."
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mendieta420 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:34

Leaver turned remainer

 
I would also now vote remain.
I was swept up in the emotion of it all. I realise my mistake and am ashamed of myself to put this on my kids and their kids.
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Mfc79 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:36
Edited On: 12/09/2019 12:40
Leaver turned remainer

 
There's no need to feel ashamed mendieta. I don't. You have the right to your opinion and you have the right to change your opinion just as I have.

The way I see it is I'm simply a 'normal bloke in the street'. I wasnt at the time of the vote and still arent an expert on a lot of the issues involved in the Brexit debate.

The whole issue was far too complex for people like me to have an informed opinion on. I voted for what I thought was right at the time and have changed my mind. I may very well change my mind again in the future.


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heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 12/09/2019 12:37

Leaver turned remainer

 
go_nads for PM[^]

Hitting nail on head...sadly
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 12:38

Leaver turned remainer

 
If we are given another referendum, I do think there would be a massive number who voted out, to abstain from voting again.

Most of us are just sick of it, it's been a damaging and wasteful experience.

There will be the entrenched who vote leave still and there will be the eurocrats who cannot see the issues with the current system.

I think the Brexit backing powers and fervent Brexiteers know that the majority are sick of it and haven't got the stomach for more uncertainty.

I still am not sure how much as a society we have been manipulated on this, it's far beyond my thinking. But that manipulation if any, after everything that has gone on over the past three years, is probably for the best to just get on.
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Ironops Posted on 12/09/2019 12:41

Leaver turned remainer

 
Go-nads - I agree that the press is biased, one look at todays front pages confirms it - the daily mail dont even mention Boris lying to the queen, its as if it never happened! But hurricane katrina is still Corbyns fault!

But I still think the majority of people are not politically engaged - rather becoming more and more disengaged
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Humpty Posted on 12/09/2019 12:43

Leaver turned remainer

 
"call me fickle but its my right to change my oppinion like everyone can."

I'd call that democracy...
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 12:55

Leaver turned remainer

 
"But I still think the majority of people are not politically engaged - rather becoming more and more disengaged"

Completely agree, but most of those who say "not of them listen to me anyway" don't realise that JC is actually trying to represent them.

So many of the stupid things levelled at him like the IRA thing and his reluctance to use military strength can't see that the biggest threat to our security comes as a result of cuts to the military, security and police by the current government.

I mean who would vote for a bloke expressing a delight at the prospect of pressing the big button? I'm opposed to the spending on a nuclear deterrent but wouldn't be if pending on much more important things like health, social care and infrastructure had been discharged. I'm opposed to our sabre rattling and insistence on being at the forefront of every conflict, but wouldn't be if we didn't have foodbanks, rough sleeping and children living in poverty.
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Ironops Posted on 12/09/2019 12:57

Leaver turned remainer

 
The problem is not Corbyn, its the perception of Corbyn - but perception is reality and it isnt going to change.
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festa5 Posted on 12/09/2019 12:59

Leaver turned remainer

 
"The whole issue was far too complex for people like me to have an informed opinion on. I voted for what I thought was right at the time and have changed"

This. In a nutshell. Very few people had the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision. You add to that an overly simplistic question on the ballot paper (because Cameron, in his arrogance didn't think leave would win) and the various politicians just making XXXXXX up and no wonder we are where we are.

We were even told to ignore experts! That was the level of the debate.

And of course you can tell we've learnt our lesson and moved on because that particular weasel has been punished by being given a key role in the cabinet. FFS.
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 13:07

Leaver turned remainer

 
Ironops, totally agree. Should Labour rely on and chase the organisations that flout Code of Practice?

1. Accuracy
i) The Press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information or images, including headlines not supported by the text.
ii) A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence, and — where appropriate — an apology published. In cases involving IPSO, due prominence should be as required by the regulator.
iii) A fair opportunity to reply to significant inaccuracies should be given, when reasonably called for.
iv) The Press, while free to editorialise and campaign, must distinguish clearly between comment, conjecture and fact.
v) A publication must report fairly and accurately the outcome of an action for defamation to which it has been a party, unless an agreed settlement states otherwise, or an agreed statement is published.

It is telling that Labour's popularity surged at the last GE on the back of press restrictions.
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Wiseman_Vaughn Posted on 12/09/2019 13:10

Leaver turned remainer

 
One thing is for sure, whether we leave or not: we are going to have years and years of division now that "we" have decided that election results and democracy are meaningless.
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 13:12

Leaver turned remainer

 
When did this happen? News to me.
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Fabios_porkpie_provider Posted on 12/09/2019 14:37

Leaver turned remainer

 
Some excellent posts Go_nads [^]
You describe how I feel in a far better way than I ever could.
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RexKramer Posted on 12/09/2019 14:40

Leaver turned remainer

 
It wasn't an election Wiseman.
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coluka Posted on 12/09/2019 15:01
Edited On: 12/09/2019 15:03
Leaver turned remainer

 
“The problem is not Corbyn, its the perception of Corbyn - but perception is reality and it isnt going to change”

Well as someone who does not trust Corbyn, from my perspective thats just condescending rubbish. It is Corbyn not the perception of him, for me. I pay attention to what I see him do, hear him say and watch how he acts (or in his case dithers) and who he surrounds himself with.

It is like trying to decide whether to shoot yourself in the left foot or the right one at present for me
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 15:09
Edited On: 12/09/2019 15:23
Leaver turned remainer

 
Hand on heart question...Do you think a labour Government led by Corbyn would cause more harm to society as a whole as a Conservative one has to date?

For example, do you think they would govern over the splits in society we now have, do you think they would continue to reduce spending on key areas such as health, social care, the police, prison and judicial system, armed forces, education and general infrastructure.

Do you think they would continue to give tax breaks to the richest in society whilst continuing to punish those with the least?

Genuine question.
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boromike85 Posted on 12/09/2019 15:25

Leaver turned remainer

 
"Do you think a labour Government led by Corbyn would cause more harm to society as a whole as a Conservative one?"

This is the whole left-wing v right-wing argument. Both sides think they are right. Left believe in giving the workers more which benefits society at the expense of the owners of capital. The right believe that helping the free-market improves the economy which benefits society that way.

The left seems fairer and it's the way I lean but we have had the right in control for a long time now, even under labour, and for a large part of society they have been a success.
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gravy173 Posted on 12/09/2019 15:30

Leaver turned remainer

 
The benefits were always obviously going to come later, it was always blatantly obvious that there would be issues immediately after we left if no deal was in place. I struggle to see why people were blinkered in not seeing that, it was stated many times during the referendum campaign by both sides, i guess people were only listening to the bits they wanted to hear like extra money for the NHS and blue passports.
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coluka Posted on 12/09/2019 15:32
Edited On: 12/09/2019 15:34
Leaver turned remainer

 
No go-nads, I think they could easily cause a different type of harm by an over spend and over tax to fund their plans as well as increase borrowing to a risky level too. That would cause high interest rates and risk high inflation, if he were to attempt to do all he says.

I worry that certain wealthy people will desert the country through fear of high taxation, setting up businesses in countries where they will pay less personal and corporate taxes. Do his utmost to scrap trident as he has already said he would urgently review, worsen diplomatic relationships with our allies and be an appeaser to the worlds aggressors.

I would prefer a half way house between the Tories and Labours plans tbh that focussed on increased spending in all those areas you mention, no problem with a small tax and/or NI increase all round, a handle needs to be kept on borrowing, welfare needs controlling. The idea of universal credit from the Tories is a good idea, badly handled and ridiculously implemented. The principle though is right. The living wage should replace the minimum wage.

We need entrepreneurs as well as public sector workers and
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 15:34

Leaver turned remainer

 
It's not though, as far I as I am concerned that is.

I can see one politician who tries to remain dignified, refuses to be engage in silly squabbles and in the past has tried to be the bigger man and accept that at times you have to bed down with your enemy for the greater good.

I see a man who is attempted to shift policies to a more socialist model where society works for society. He has his faults, but if you measure his faults against Cameron, Blair and May and in particular against the likes of Johnson and Thatcher, I cannot see that there is any comparison in terms of harm he could do to the country.

Some of his policies are flawed, I cannot see how services could be renationalised, the Tory's have wrecked that revenue stream for the country.

But could you imagine the furore if Corbyn had say, abolished bursary's for nurses and introduced university fees when we already face a short fall in nurse recruitment and can fill places due to experienced staff leaving due to the awful working conditions and pay?
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 15:41
Edited On: 12/09/2019 15:43
Leaver turned remainer

 
"No go-nads, I think they could easily cause a different type of harm by an over spend and over tax to fund their plans as well as increase borrowing to a risky level too. That would cause high interest rates and risk high inflation, if he were to attempt to do all he says."

Other than increase of interest rates, that's exactly what the Conservatives have done. They have ploughed on with austerity despite all forward thinking experts agreeing that it does not reduce debts, they have increased the national debt significantly on the back of this.

They can harp on as much as they like about the unemployment figure, but when that does not collate to increased taxation and increased public spending for the good of all sections of society, it's a pretty hollow victory.

Labour have produced a fully costed manifesto, the Conservatives have not.
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coluka Posted on 12/09/2019 15:41

Leaver turned remainer

 
The problem is the two party system.

To achieve a fairer society, we need a form of PR. We need local regional assembly's that make key local spending decisions. Blairs government was not bad at all, they did a lot of good, especially in education and health. He will forever be tarnished by Iraq, but the economy , health and education were fine and we all prospered relatively speaking
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festa5 Posted on 12/09/2019 15:47

Leaver turned remainer

 
"worsen diplomatic relationships with our allies and be an appeaser to the worlds aggressors"

Such as using WW2 rhetoric when dealing with our allies in Europe perhaps? Or cosying up to Saudi Arabia maybe?

As for who he surrounds himself with. Well there's no denying that Diane Abbott is a walking own goal. But is she any worse than a Chris Grayling for example? David Davies? Priti Patel? The list is bleeding endless.

Concerns over spending? How's that HS2 coming on? Or the magic money tree.

Nearly everything people are worried about that Corbyn might do the Tories are currently ACTUALLY doing now.

God knows he's not perfect, but I find it hard to believe a Labour government, even a Corbyn led one, could be any worse. And at least their policies are aimed at improving the lot of the majority of the country, not just the richest few.
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 15:55

Leaver turned remainer

 
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jam69 Posted on 12/09/2019 16:02

Leaver turned remainer

 
spot on festa, i can never understand how a large % of the population can be persuaded that a government that will do more for them both socially and financially would be bad news, bad news yes for the richest 1% who would pay a little more, like the owners of the mail, telegraph, times , the sun , sky news etc, them when you lost them like that it's clear how it happens.
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go_nads Posted on 12/09/2019 16:05

Leaver turned remainer

 
"Do his utmost to scrap trident as he has already said he would urgently review".

Does this really deter people from voting for Labour?? Corbyn is opposed to Trident and for good reasons, but he has stated it's a party issue and the will of the party will be seen.

Trident is going to cost around £200 billion, personally, I couldn't give a toss about it, especially if it meant that money was spent on Education, Health etc etc.

If it comes to the point where using nuclear weapons is a viable option, I would say giving consideration to future events would be pretty futile.

The only reason governments want to have a nuclear capability is for the prestige of being at the top table and being a global influencer. For me, I would rather we took a back seat to international politics and concentrated on our own issues and needs. We aren't a global super power any more.

We can hardly preach to other countries and how they are ran when we have suckered up to the Saudi's and China, not to mention to turning a blind eye to whatever it is the Americans get up to.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 12/09/2019 17:05

Leaver turned remainer

 
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