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The_same_as_before Posted on 11/07/2019 08:19
Edited On: 11/07/2019 08:20Tom Watson
 
Is currently dissecting the leadership of the Labour party second by second on the R4 Today. He started off by agreeing with the Panorama programme.

He has no access to the data he is banned by the Communications team.
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superstu Posted on 11/07/2019 08:36

Tom Watson
It's all pointless for socialists isn't it? The number of forces that exist to stop a government that might make life a little bit nicer ever getting near power is ridiculous. The entire media have closed ranks, the PLPs full of MPs that are actively working against the party, Pompeos basically told us the CIA will assassinate him... Honestly what's the point?
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 08:40

Tom Watson
Interesting defence of Corbyn by Watson on R4 this morning as the BBC thought they had a patsie to push this story beyond anything that's there. Watson came on to express disgust, had little to feel disgusted about then was embarrassed by BBC interviewer questions.
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The_same_as_before Posted on 11/07/2019 08:47

Tom Watson
That's one interpretaition.

At least he had concerns about the young people on the programme and did not automatically say they were low life.
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 08:51

Tom Watson
Once he realised there was no substance to the questioning angle, he changed his tune completely. As far as his concern for the young people, he couldn't elaborate on the concerns.
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BillyBill Posted on 11/07/2019 09:06

Tom Watson
Why do those who are so wedded to Corbyn seem to think that the Labour party agenda / manifesto will die with him?

I think there is huge support for those policies just not for Corbyn who is too tainted to every be elected to deliver anyway


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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 09:09

Tom Watson
Possibly the experience of the last 20 years. After a good start by Blair, the Labour party list any discernible identity. The lib Dems were the second most left wing party in 2010, even with the supposedly left wing milliband in charge.(The greens were the most left wing and still are.)
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1finny Posted on 11/07/2019 09:13

Tom Watson
Bear - Watson raised lots of issues and challenges?
*The instant condemnation of the participants by the party
*He wants to understand why bundles of disciplinary issues went to the leaders office
*The deleting of e mails by the general secretary
*The need for rule changes which can only happen if JCs supporters fall into line on the NEC
*The report to the Human Rights commission defending the Labour Party on anti semitism not being discussed by the Shadow Cabinet

He also went on to say he thought JC was able and likely to resolve this issue
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 09:26

Tom Watson
He questioned whether these bundles existed and wanted evidence. I struggled to hear what rule changes he wanted. I missed the last point.
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1finny Posted on 11/07/2019 09:29

Tom Watson
He (and others) want auto exclusion if there is a prima facie case against anti semitism (much like the exclusion for voting for another party - Campbell).

He wants a full independent enquiry
He wants a full transparency of the e mail trails - he was promised, he said, no e mails would be deleted
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 09:34

Tom Watson
That seems to be the problem. Prima facie is impossible with a definition that was never meant for legal interpretation, as it stands no legal test.

He'll get an independent inquiry by default with the current action being taken against the Labour party.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 11/07/2019 09:50

Tom Watson
On fairness to Watson I donít think he did come across as anti Corbyn he just basically said there is a problem with some people in the party and it needs to be sorted properly. Iím sure he also said that just because Corbyn publicly calls for the protection of Palestinian human rights does not mean he is a terrorist or anti Semite.

With regard to data, there are laws about who has access and who can use it these days and rightly so particularly in the political arena. Would you trust Tom Watson.

Handy diversion for Boris though.....
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 09:56

Tom Watson
I thought his wording was a bit odd. I initially thought he was being refused membership numbers, but clearly he would have no rights to requests for membership data.
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emerson_ave Posted on 11/07/2019 09:58

Tom Watson
'It's all pointless for socialists isn't it? The number of forces that exist to stop a government that might make life a little bit nicer ever getting near power is ridiculous. The entire media have closed ranks, the PLPs full of MPs that are actively working against the party, Pompeos basically told us the CIA will assassinate him... Honestly what's the point?'

This is garbage. Labour leaders of all shades of political opinion have had to deal with similar attacks. Some have managed to overcome them. The current leader is hopelessly out of his depth. He is a puppet of his closest advisers, Milne, McLuskey,Murray and Formby. He lacks all the qualities required for any top job let alone the leader of a political party or Prime Minister.
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 10:10

Tom Watson
Strangely they haven't by a ratio of hundreds to one. Every Tory interview mentions the "threat of Corbyn" these days, no matter what the subject. Never ever heard that in previous decades.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/07/2019 10:16

Tom Watson
Propaganda works.
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newyddion Posted on 11/07/2019 10:32

Tom Watson
'The number of forces that exist to stop a government that might make life a little bit nicer ever getting near power is ridiculous'

The tarquins certainly are flapping..
they'll still have an unelected leader doing fleecing everyone until 2022.
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superstu Posted on 11/07/2019 10:37

Tom Watson
"Labour leaders of all shades of political opinion have had to deal with similar attacks."

Agree to disagree. [^] I've never before seen clips of American politicians talking about dealing with Labour leaders if they get close to power. I don't remember Harriet Harman starting petitions to undermine Ed Miliband when he was leader and she deputy. Okay the Sun and the Mail are never friendly (except maybe to Blair) but the range of sources that the smearing comes at Corbyn from is astounding. And it's not just aimed at Corbyn - it's always stated as problems of "the far/hard/whatever left" and the members.
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emerson_ave Posted on 11/07/2019 10:57

Tom Watson
Superstu.

I assume you are unfamiliar with Churchill's 'Gestapo' speech in the 1945 election?
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bear66 Posted on 11/07/2019 11:01

Tom Watson
The Tories should have learnt their lesson after that.
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emerson_ave Posted on 11/07/2019 11:04

Tom Watson
'The Tories should have learnt their lesson after that.'

So nothing to be concerned about. All grist to the mill.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/07/2019 11:08

Tom Watson
The people should have.
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superstu Posted on 11/07/2019 11:25

Tom Watson
Yep you're right. I'll google it when I'm on my lunch. I'm not getting my hopes up that a 1945 speech by the tory leader contesting the election against Atlee will massively change my opinion tbh.
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toshoffathebillstash Posted on 11/07/2019 11:40

Tom Watson
What evidence do people have that socialism has ever helped the people? socialism is a failed ideal, supported by the middle class in this country and mainly in London.

I would much rather have some credible compassionate, pragmatic capitalism that actually helps the people that need it most. Corbyn is obsessed with this socialist ideal, even when his decisions would cost the very people he should be protecting
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jam69 Posted on 11/07/2019 12:10

Tom Watson
NHS, access to healthcare regardless of means for starters
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emerson_ave Posted on 11/07/2019 12:39

Tom Watson
'Yep you're right. I'll google it when I'm on my lunch. I'm not getting my hopes up that a 1945 speech by the tory leader contesting the election against Atlee will massively change my opinion tbh.'

I expect you have also overlooked the attacks on Ed Miliband based on his father Ralph's views.
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hopesoboro Posted on 11/07/2019 13:18

Tom Watson
I don't think Corbyn believes that the capitalist system needs replacing - just wanting to make sure the best interests of ordinary folk are not dismantled by an application of "excessive" capitalism.
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toshoffathebillstash Posted on 11/07/2019 13:19

Tom Watson
he needs to be more pragmatic though, I enjoy socialism in theory but he needs to be clever and realise both what will appeal to the electorate but equally what will work best for our society
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superstu Posted on 11/07/2019 15:14

Tom Watson
No I remember those well. The difference is that they came from the Daily Mail, not the deputy leader of the party or the PLP or BBC news.
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billyzin Posted on 11/07/2019 21:34

Tom Watson
"Labour leaders of all shades of political opinion have had to deal with similar attacks."
No, they have not.
There has never ever been a more concerted, ongoing and completely unchecked media hatchet job on any leader in British political history.
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emerson_ave Posted on 12/07/2019 10:22

Tom Watson
'There has never ever been a more concerted, ongoing and completely unchecked media hatchet job on any leader in British political history.'

One reason for this is the nature of today's media. There has been plenty of mud thrown at Johnson in the media in the last few weeks.

As a Labour supporter (not a member) I have not been influenced by the more lurid stories about Corbyn. His election always was a mistake. He is just not up to the job. There are many similarities between Corbyn supporters and Johnson supporters. Both are blind to their unsuitability for any kind of high office.
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DybuksChampion Posted on 12/07/2019 10:43

Tom Watson
I've said this before but anyone interested in the way the country works should watch 'A very British coup'.
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superstu Posted on 12/07/2019 11:12

Tom Watson
I had a look at that gestapo speech you mentioned EA. Fair enough it's a daft attack on a Labour leader from way back BUT did the entire media report it as valid? Did Labour MPs quit the party over the allegations? Were Labour MPs who denied being Nazis kicked out the party like Chris Williamson has been for denying the party being institutionally antisemitic? I still think it's a more impossible task now for a left wing party to overcome.

Re: "His election always was a mistake. He is just not up to the job."

Who would you have instead? Burnham, Cooper, Kendall? Or Owen Smith or Angela Eagle? I don't think any of them would have half the ambition that was in the 2017 manifesto. I guess the antisemitism smear wouldn't be happening but the party probably wouldn't have made the gains it did in the 2017 election, wouldn't have the mass membership. Depends what you're looking for 🤷‍♂️ Maybe they'd look more likely to win an election now but if they're doing it on a manifesto of cuts, privatising more parts of the NHS, sticking to tory spending plans what's the point?
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dragged_up_in_whinneybanks Posted on 12/07/2019 12:59

Tom Watson
Positioning himself to take over from Corbyn when the latter eventually implodes. He has lost about 10 stones in weight and has had a proper haircut.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 12/07/2019 13:06

Tom Watson
He's wasting his time.
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