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NorthumberlandBoro Posted on 14/05/2019 20:32
Wolves to install rail seats
 
 
The first prem club to do so..

Link: Wolves
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BigmetsBoro86 Posted on 14/05/2019 21:26

Wolves to install rail seats

 
If pulis is still here then we have no need to stand. That includes setplays[V]
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Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 14/05/2019 21:48

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Pointless, unless it is an allowable expense under FFP, and they have a ďfriendlyĒ contractor.
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FullTiltTraore Posted on 14/05/2019 22:37

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Will be banned in Prem I would think but FA Cup may use them as a trial game maybe.
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American_Mary Posted on 15/05/2019 06:42

Wolves to install rail seats

 
The beauty of standing was you could move somewhere to see, what happens if your rail seat is behind Tyson Fury in his Manchester United top hat ?
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rob_fmttm Posted on 15/05/2019 09:05

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Spurs have installed them in their new stadium also. Everyone expects the legislation to change, sooner than later, so it makes sense if you are building a new ground or changing an area of seating in a ground (if you can afford rail seats). We will probably see more and more installed I think and then it will be so obvious that it is safer to stand with the rail than if you jump up when something exciting happens and have your seat in the way. I think the seats have to be locked down at the moment when rail seats are installed.
Even if you can stop people standing you will never ever stop people jumping up when goal mouth action occurs and that is the least safe state of all.
But look at Brentford. Their new stadium is not finished and so we will be back at Griffin Park next season. They are given a waiver every season. But Griffin Park has always had standing round at least 2 sides of the ground on terraces and they dont have any history of incidents.
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Borocelt Posted on 15/05/2019 09:15

Wolves to install rail seats

 
It's just an informal understanding that fans will use them, isn't it? I hope we get them in the North and South stands one day.
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free_pint Posted on 15/05/2019 09:59

Wolves to install rail seats

 
The club have said it's a safer way to deal with standing in that stand as it'll stop people falling over seats. Can't legally remove the seats, but people don't have to use them, basically.

The laws in this country are backwards, but fair play to them and Spurs for manipulating the way the laws are written!
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rob_fmttm Posted on 15/05/2019 11:03

Wolves to install rail seats

 
It isnt actually the law. We found out through a barrister that it is basically at the discretion of the Home Secretary. Hence each year he/she officially gives Brentford another year until their new stadium is ready. Every time a Peterborough is promoted they are allowed a year to enforce all seating. In theory the Home Secretary could say every club with rail seating can use it for safe standing. Whether they would do that or not is another matter.
Did you know the local council in Cardiff has been allowing fans to stand behind a goal for the last couple of years? Is it unlikely any government would act against them as how could they prove it wasnt safe? They have been collecting evidence for well over 6 months. I doubt there are any safety incidents of note at Cardiff, Brentford or Middlesbrough or anywhere.
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McMordie Posted on 15/05/2019 13:49

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Although Rob rightly says it isn't actually the law and it's down to the discretion of the Secretary of State (to be pedantic, the legislation doesn't actually specify the Home Secretary), in practice it is to all intents and purposes the law because it's hard to see the present approach changing without a change in the under lying legislation. This is because it's unlikely that any Secretary of State would take the personal risk that they might take it on themselves to change the approach and there might then be a disaster.

I do think, however, that much of the present debate is based on a misconception about what the legislation was originally intended to be about. It was introduced after Hillsborough with the intention of enforcing all seater stadia. It wasn't about actually forcing spectators always to sit down.

The legislation says that the Secretary of State can compel local safety authorities to impose conditions on safety certificates with regard to the provision of accommodation for spectators and the arrangements for spectators attending. What was contemplated at the time was that the condition would simply be that there had to be a seat for every spectator (not that the spectators would necessarily sit on them).

Rail seats would therefore come entirely within the spirit of the legislation. There would be seats for every spectator when necessary but flexibility for the local safety authority and clubs to agree specific arrangements on a match by match basis. For example, when Leeds visited the Riverside last season it might have been sensible to have had the away section wholly seated because it would be full to capacity, but when Rotherham visited it would have been perfectly possible to have had sufficient seats at the front for their fans with standing at the back for those who wanted to use it.

It's also worth noting that it has never been an offence to stand at a football match. The legal position of us as spectators is a civil matter governed by the ground regulations we agree to when we enter the ground. Part of the problem for fans is that clubs tend to have standard ground regulations, saying you can be ejected for persistently standing but clubs enforce then in different ways. What might be tolerated at one ground can get you thrown out of another, which can be a major cause of tension between stewards and away fans.

Also, what does "persistently standing" actually mean? Is there a maximum number of times I can go to the toilet or to get a cup of tea before I have to crawl along the ground to do so?
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Crookes Posted on 15/05/2019 14:19

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Rail seats are not locked down during Spursí Prem games - de facto safe standing and works well.
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McMordie Posted on 15/05/2019 14:30

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Standing in itself has never been unsafe. The Hillsborough disaster wasn't caused by the fact that supporters were standing, it was caused by overcrowding.

The original point behind the legislation was simply to prevent overcrowding, not to make people sit down. By making it a condition of the safety certificate that there had to be a seat for every spectator you were setting a limit on the number of people in the ground and controlling where in the ground they were.

Having said that, as a longterm season ticket holder in the North Stand at Ayresome Park who rarely went on the Holgate, it annoys me to pay £35 for a seat at a Boro away match and then be unable to sit on it because everyone in front of me is standing.
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JLinardi Posted on 15/05/2019 14:37

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Canít see why this is such a huge deal, at concerts in stadiums you get thousands of people stood on the pitch area and nothing ever happens, the rest of the people in the stands are all standing and nothing ever happens.

How many thousands of games were played up until the hillsbrough thing where nothing ever happened?

Itís simple, donít allow people in who donít have a ticket and will push the standing areas over capacity and cause a crush.

Itís like banning air travel after 9/11.
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McMordie Posted on 15/05/2019 15:06

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Part of the issue was not just how many people are in the stadium but also where in the stadium they are. The problem at Hillsborough was that too many people were in the centre pens while there was still space in the pens to the sides.

The point behind the seat for every person rule was supposed to be that by giving everyone an allocated space you are controlling how crowded each individual part of the stadium is.

It seems to me that having done that it doesn't matter whether the rail seats are up or down from a safety perspective.

Having said that, I can see that there will be threads on here in a couple of years time saying "Now that we have rail seating, if the seats are up and it's effectively a terrace the ticket price should be lower...."
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Richyboro Posted on 15/05/2019 16:56

Wolves to install rail seats

 
I'm going to miss falling over the seats in front when we score. [cr]
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JLinardi Posted on 15/05/2019 18:10

Wolves to install rail seats

 
You can still allocate people a space wether they sit or stand.
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atypical_boro Posted on 15/05/2019 18:48

Wolves to install rail seats

 
JL - those at Hillsborough were allocated a space.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 15/05/2019 18:52

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Don't be so daft.
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JLinardi Posted on 15/05/2019 19:00

Wolves to install rail seats

 
They might have been but wasnít the whole thing started by opening a gate and letting people in who didnít have a ticket?

High prices keeping crowds down, better ticketing systems, no fences around the pitch. More than one person would have to monumentally fcuck something up for a repeat of hillsbrough disaster.
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atypical_boro Posted on 15/05/2019 19:11
Edited On: 15/05/2019 19:15
Wolves to install rail seats

 
They opened a gate in panic because they hadn't planned properly, but there were areas designated for certain fans and that wasn't enough to ensure safety in the circumstances.

The thing with safe standing is I don't think its not embraced because they fear another Hillsborough as such, its that they fear any possible incident that could affect someone or kill someone when the Taylor report clearly said standing at football matches should be done away with. Its all fine and dandy until someone gets hurt, but the minute anyone gets hurt for any reason that can be remotely connected with standing and it would go thermonuclear in the media.
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asredastheycome Posted on 15/05/2019 20:37

Wolves to install rail seats

 
McMordie I was thinking exactly the same regarding pricing.
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Borocelt Posted on 15/05/2019 20:41

Wolves to install rail seats

 
I don't see any conceivable incident that could possibly happen that would not happen anyway in a seated area.

Aside from the obvious difference between old style terracing and safe standing which don't even need elaborating upon, it'd be virtually impossible to have people get into a stadium these days without a ticket, to a point where it could make things unsafe.
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atypical_boro Posted on 15/05/2019 22:44

Wolves to install rail seats

 
Agree Borocelt, but wait til someone on Twitter says their dad wouldnít have had a heart attack if he didnít have to stand, or whatever, and the papers get hold of it.

Iím not saying it would be right, but I can see why itís so difficult. Hillsborough legacy runs deep and unforgettable in this country.
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rob_fmttm Posted on 16/05/2019 01:02

Wolves to install rail seats

 
It has been such a success at Celtic that they are extending the rail seated area.

It is a total myth that fans without tickets were to blame for the Hillsborough disaster - this was debunked at the Inquest hearing. It was that fans were herded into already full pens, while other pens were almost empty. They were directed the wrong way.
Many Boro fans can remember how at some away games at this time, ends like at Notts County would be divided up by fences and you would fill one section at a time. Some sections would be crammed. Others with loads of space. At Hillsborough this would have lethal consequences as they funnelled people into one section.
Read Boro fan Paul Armstrong's eye witness account from his Match of the Day editor's position. He also recounts how almost the same thing had happened the year before.
Interestingly I read an account that in the World Cup 1966 at Ayresome Park despite being a crowd of less than half the ground capacity, they didn't open enough turnstiles and managed to overfill a section of the newly covered Bob End. The newspaper reckoned hundreds of fans were thus not able to see the opening game of the World Cup.
Am not suggesting that this was life threatening. But it was a problem caused by newly sectioned off areas of the ground and not having enough turnstiles or signage.
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JLinardi Posted on 16/05/2019 01:07

Wolves to install rail seats

 
"wait til someone on Twitter says their dad wouldnít have had a heart attack if he didnít have to stand"

Id imagine stadiums would still be 75% seating at least, their dad should have sat in the seating area.
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middlesbrough123 Posted on 16/05/2019 01:09

Wolves to install rail seats

 
If only we could have the holgate back tomorrow, it was the best thing about attending a match as a kid [:D]
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atypical_boro Posted on 16/05/2019 08:11

Wolves to install rail seats

 
"He couldn't get a seat in the seated area and he wanted to watch his beloved club so he had to stand up all game and people kept knocking into him, my Dad would be alive if the FA had listened to the Taylor Report, heads should roll etc".

I can just see the twitter storm now. Sadly its the world we live in.
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