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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 12:56
Edited On: 10/01/2019 12:57Brexit
 
 
There was a referendum in 2016...leave or remain in the EU.

The majority of those that bothered to tick a box chose to leave.

Leave never mentioned leaving with a deal attached - leave is leave. Having a deal has just been placed there to muddy the waters.

Had a large amount of MP's accepted the democratic majority and concentrated on being outside of the EU we wouldn't be in such a pickle today. How much time and effort has been wasted in trying to get a second referendum? why have so many MP's chosen to betray the majority?

There's a job to be done and we're being let down by MP's who keep dragging their heels - which in turn attracts the sheep and keeps the division alive.


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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 12:59

Brexit

 
And what about Ireland? Our single border with the EU.
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TheFair86 Posted on 10/01/2019 13:01
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:02
Brexit

 
Oh thank goodness another Brexit thread, there's only 6 to choose from on the front page and it was getting a little bit tight choosing between them there.

Disagree and think if you said to everyone at the time leaving will mean just crashing out of the EU I doubt many would have voted for that over remaining as we were. You might have, hence your post, but the fact that many brexiters are against it and national polls suggest people would rather remain than No Deal does not support your claim.

MP's are not dragging their heals, they are listening to their constituents, which is what they are paid to do.

no one is being betrayed here.
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:04

Brexit

 
I'm honestly interested to hear from Brexiters what they 'voted for' with regards the border conundrum. I'm yet to hear any of them really say what they thought would happen on that front.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:07

Brexit

 
This is my point...it's for the MP's to solve complex issues - not us on a football forum. Drop the anti-Brexit stuff, get your heads together and work on solutions.
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bear66 Posted on 10/01/2019 13:07

Brexit

 
"Leave never mentioned leaving with a deal attached"

The referendum was only advisory. Her Majesty's government have far more responsibilities to its citizens than the request to "take back control".
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wartle Posted on 10/01/2019 13:07

Brexit

 
I voted leave But with the caveat I hoped for a Brexit PM and a cross party negotiating team.

Unfortunately the incompetence of our government has meant we have wasted over 2 years and I'm now left with general apathy towards the situation.

Honestly couldn't care less anymore.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:12

Brexit

 
I see divisions right across society and between MP's within the same parties. I'm not interested in what the public thinks now tbh...I'm just really annoyed that the MP's have kept up the infighting and not got on with the job in hand.

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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:15
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:16
Brexit

 
"This is my point...it's for the MP's to solve complex issues - not us on a football forum. Drop the anti-Brexit stuff, get your heads together and work on solutions."

But the XXXXXXic Cameron government did exactly that, they didn't leave the EU issue to the MPs, they put it in the hands of us. They never had the faintest idea how to solve the Irish issue (or any other issue), and just hoped it wouldn't happen because they knew it was virtually impossible to implement.

Now its not being implemented, those of you who voted for something feel like you're being lied to, but you were being lied to all along. We never could 'just leave' the EU while we share a land border with it, a very sensitive land border at that.
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Gadgee Posted on 10/01/2019 13:16

Brexit

 
I'm honestly interested to hear from Brexiters what they 'voted for' with regards the border conundrum

its down to the eu to enforce their border not the uk
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FlyMeToTheMatch Posted on 10/01/2019 13:18
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:19
Brexit

 
"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market." Boris Johnson, now foreign secretary, declared in the aftermath of the vote that Britain would retain access to the single market.


LEAVE MEANS LEAV.. Erm Stay?

Link: From the horses mouth, Boris Johnson
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:18
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:21
Brexit

 
"Its down to the eu to enforce their border not the uk"

'their' border? They don't want a border at all, of any kind. They'd happily accept us into Schengen and stay in the EU if we wanted.

Its the 'just leave' voters who want one. Otherwise, how else can you 'just leave'? By continuing to allow unmonitored immigration into the UK? If they were happy with that, we would 'just leave'.
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1finny Posted on 10/01/2019 13:19

Brexit

 
‘This is my point...it's for the MP's to solve complex issues’

Agree - Leaving the EU is pretty complex ....and most MPs want to remain. On that front they have every right to fight for what they believe in.
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Gadgee Posted on 10/01/2019 13:21

Brexit

 
They don't want a border at all, of any kind.

Thats not the point. as part of eu regulations they need to police the border of their super state
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FlyMeToTheMatch Posted on 10/01/2019 13:21

Brexit

 
Are you sure "leave is leave"?

As thats not what Boris Johnson promised you

Freesom of movement would stay

Link: Leave doesnt mean leave
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:25
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:29
Brexit

 
"Thats not the point. as part of eu regulations they need to police the border of their super state".

It very much is the point; they don't want a border, the Irish on both sides don't want a border, but many people on the British mainland don't want the 'uncontrolled immigration' that continuing to not have a border would bring. If they were all happy with not having a border (and the governent's DUP allies were happy for NI to be treated differently to the rest of the UK and raise the likelihood of a United Ireland), we'd be out on 29th March and that would be that, as suggested in the OP.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:28

Brexit

 
"On that front they have every right to fight for what they believe in"

Does it not go beyond what they personally believe in? Do they not have a duty to the majority of the public who opted to leave?

This is not about what you or I voted for...it's about the job of an MP.
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 13:31

Brexit

 
Leave campaign is under two separate criminal investigations.

We've gone from sunny uplands to it'll be tough for a while, but how long is a while? Nobody knows.

Immigration will not reduce.

NHS will not be getting 350 million a week.

We've lost our freedom of movement within the EU.

Fishing and farming will suffer.

It's cost 500 million a week since the referendum.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Every promise made by the leave campaign has turned out to be utter nonsense.

How can anyone still be comfortable with all of the above? And still think it's a good idea and press ahead with the most monumental of decisions, knowing it's corrupt, is beyond me?
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:33
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:35
Brexit

 
"Do they not have a duty to the majority of the public who opted to leave?"

They do. They've proposed the terms of leaving, but the majority of people who voted to exit aren't happy with those terms and the MPs are rebelling against those terms on their behalf.

Problem is, there is no magic bullet with regards the terms to leave, and none of those rebelling can propose anything better.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:35

Brexit

 
You see here, we're going off track and creating a far bigger debate and dare I say 'muddying the water'

MP's should have been concentrating on Brexit rather than looking at ways to stop Brexit. That is where I'm at and how I feel let down.

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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:36
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:38
Brexit

 
They're not all trying to stop Brexit, they're trying to stop 'this' Brexit, because they believe a 'better' Brexit exists. As do many of the people who voted for Brexit. This isn't just about MPs.

I don't hear many Brexiters, MPs or otherwise, saying "The deal is fine, get on with it now".
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 13:37

Brexit

 
No, because as soon as it was written down on paper, it was shown up for the total sham it is.
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Ironops Posted on 10/01/2019 13:37
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:55
Brexit

 
'I'm just really annoyed that the MP's have kept up the infighting and not got on with the job in hand. '

They have got on with it though, we have a deal in place. The fact you or anyone else doesnt like it is beside the point.

It does absolutely deliver on the referendum result - we are out of the customs union, single market and all those other things people want us to be out of.

But the government also has an obligation not to break the northern ireland peace process - and again this doesnt.

The fact people all thought they were getting a unicorn and have ended up with a pig in a poke is testament to how people were conned into voting for Brexit in the first place!
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 13:41

Brexit

 
I wouldn't feel let down either.

It's an absolute clusterfcuk, going to be extremely damaging, and those most unable to burden the brunt are going to be the most effected.

See it more of a damage limitation exercise, and be thankful people are actually looking after the interests of the country and it's people, not their own interests and party.
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1finny Posted on 10/01/2019 13:42

Brexit

 
Upthechels
Here is the problem - its your view that they should be concentrating on delivering brexit.
Other people’s view it differently:
* The vote was advisory anyway
* We know more now than we did then
* They have a duty to voters and the country
* Most of the data from the government suggests we will either be a fair bit worse off or a whole lot worse off (depending on deal or no deal)

Faced with all that maybe they think they have a bigger duty than to follow 52% of a 70% turnout.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:42

Brexit

 
Well those intelligent MP's will back the PM's deal with no problem then.

No deal. bad deal, hard, soft etc.

I think this will go way beyond March 29th.

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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:44

Brexit

 
"Well those intelligent MP's will back the PM's deal with no problem then."

But they're looking after the people, who you say they should be fighting for.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:47

Brexit

 
1Finny

Do we really know more or has become more of a pea soup? The longer it's gone on the more baffled I've become!!!
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:47

Brexit

 
We know more about how easy it is to leave.
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jam69 Posted on 10/01/2019 13:47

Brexit

 
you voted to hand back control to parliament and now you don't like what parliament are doing? so only control our laws if it's ones you like?
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 13:48
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:48
Brexit

 
As above, some think we should look to EU Regulations to get us out of this mess we've created. The irony....
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:49

Brexit

 
Because the split is close to 50/50 I understand why it's caused so much trouble. I would think most MP's voted to remain and are now a dog with a bone...backed by half the public (ish)
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:52

Brexit

 
Jam69

Some are trying to do a job but are being hampered by those that want to hinder that process. This is what I talk about.

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Borocelt Posted on 10/01/2019 13:54

Brexit

 
Your idiots should’ve put together a clear, and crucially, honest plan then, shouldn’t you?

Vote for con artists and shysters, and then you’re surprised by their inability to produce your unobtainable fantasy.

Of course, it’s now everyone else’s fault.
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1finny Posted on 10/01/2019 13:56

Brexit

 
UptheChels
We do know more:
As one example
We know the impact on supply if we have to put in customs controls at Dover.
* Medicines
* Food
* Automotive/aircraft parts all held up

The current Brexit Secretary who voted ‘leave’ is on record as saying he had no idea of the importance of imports coming though Dover.
New news to him and many others.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 13:57
Edited On: 10/01/2019 13:58
Brexit

 
Borocelt

Idiots?

Here we go, name-calling.

Was there any need for that? Really?
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bear66 Posted on 10/01/2019 13:57

Brexit

 
"its down to the eu to enforce their border not the uk"

Nothing to do with the EU. The border is controlled by the Ireland / UK international agreement.
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Ironops Posted on 10/01/2019 14:01

Brexit

 
Basically we were asked if we wanted dinner or not.

We voted for dinner but some people took too much notice of the bloke ouside holding a picture of a nice juicy steak

Now we are getting served and its turned out to be dog$hit on toast - but its still dinner!

So chow down people!
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 14:02

Brexit

 
1Finny

Anything can be solved, imo. It was always going to be complex and take us down unknown roads. I'm sure there's plenty of negatives and positives to be found.
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 14:05

Brexit

 
It was a ridiculous thing to do anyway, a binary choice to an extremely complex issue.

No wonder it's ended up with this shambles.

But it's out of the box now, and impossible to get back in, hence the deadlock in Parliament.

The most sensible thing to do is put it back to the people, ask them what Brexit they want, and I'm sure we'll come to our senses.
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 14:06

Brexit

 
It is being solved as we speak. It will be solved, its just taking longer than the people who voted for it want.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 14:06

Brexit

 
Ironops

Not me buddy, I have a very nice bespoke woodland lodge in Norfolk and want people to stay in the UK for their holidays...steak anyone? [:D]
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Ironops Posted on 10/01/2019 14:11

Brexit

 
Dibizz - I agree, either put it back to the people or leave with a Norway type arrangement and if in future we want to diverge more we can do so at our own pace

Im increasingly of the view that thats the best way forward - we leave with a soft brexit, little damage to the economy and future governments decide later on leaving to a greater degree or going back in
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Muttley Posted on 10/01/2019 15:14

Brexit

 
"I have a very nice bespoke woodland lodge in Norfolk and want people to stay in the UK for their holidays"

Do you get many unemployed people staying at your lodge?
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rayban Posted on 10/01/2019 15:19

Brexit

 
One positive. If anyone in this country did not realise how unscrupulous and corrupt our elected representatives are. They should do so now. We have on one side, the incompetent and wealth biased Tories. (Its no coincidence that Brexit has become a fiasco. Its a well orchestrated, manufactured fiasco) On the other hand we have the unprincipled charlatans of the Labour party. They care nothing about the country or the common people that live in it, as long as they achieve power.
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plazmuh Posted on 10/01/2019 15:24

Brexit

 

Full E.U intigration = CAN OF WORMS

Changing £££ to Euros = CAN OF WORMS

BANKERS GO CRAZY = CAN OF WORMS

WORKERS RIGHT = CAN OF WORMS

E.U Working Hours = CAN OF WORMS

Pension Equality = CAN OF WORMS

E.U Army = CAN OF WORMS

Just a little list that proves beyond any doubt

we are no way a fully Equal member State..

Just the way the Tories have wanted from the start..

So please stop saying we are a member state bacause

THAT IS AN OUTRAGIOUS LIE..

Its not even a full list..

Maybe Corbyn has better ideas than May..

Just Saying!!!!

Much Love
Plazmuh

So NON OF THIS IS RELEVENT TO REMAINERS WE

REMAIN HALF IN..

There you are Nobody has addressed any of my

comments Dibzzz so have a go..
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 15:33

Brexit

 
Ironops

I get your point, I'm all for making the best we can of it if we must go through with it.

As you probably know, the trouble with the Norwegian idea is that they accept free movement, I'm all for that, but the Gammon, when they realise, will go mental.

Plus Norway have massive leaverage we don't, oil.
They also have a massive reserve of money, that they borrow around the world, and do very nicely off the interest.

They're also happy to be out of the EU yet agree to everything they do, as they have a small population, they can set their own import taxes and keep things expensive there, as they don't want the population retiring early.

It works well for them, but it just doesn't fit with Britain.

Also Norway have made it clear they wouldn't be happy with another country joining their club as it were, they'd say we'd fcuk it al up.

Their PM said, it would be like inviting a drunken trouble making relative to a party, and hoping everything will be ok.

Don't mess their words Norwegians [:D]



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ZappBrannagan Posted on 10/01/2019 15:36

Brexit

 

"Drop the anti-Brexit stuff, get your heads together and work on solutions."


No.
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 15:37

Brexit

 
Plaz

As you've highlited with your can of worms list, we already have a great deal as it stands. Why bother leaving?
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foomanboro Posted on 10/01/2019 15:37
Edited On: 10/01/2019 15:42
Brexit

 
OP it not up to remainers to clean up leavers mess.

It’s bad enough you’re trying drag us over a cliff with you. We would rather spend our efforts stopping this suicide attempt than assisting it.
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 15:49

Brexit

 
"As you probably know, the trouble with the Norwegian idea is that they accept free movement, I'm all for that, but the Gammon, when they realise, will go mental"

I would do my nut.
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Foggysfplandiet3 Posted on 10/01/2019 16:08

Brexit

 
Won't it be great when this is over with and this can be a football board once again?
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 16:09

Brexit

 
Embrace the moment
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bumface Posted on 10/01/2019 16:29

Brexit

 
Well we really needed yet another thread on this, right? FFS. . .
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 16:37

Brexit

 
The subject was a giveaway really.

If I see a topic that doesn't interest me I just leave it be and let those that may have interest fill their boots.
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Ironops Posted on 10/01/2019 16:42

Brexit

 
You may well do your nut if we retain free movement but the question on the referendum paper was leave or remain - not leave according to what any given individual wants for them.

the current teresa may deal ticks all the boxes people wanted when they voted to leave, yet its universally hated - so maybe people should re-examine their expectations of what they though were promised against the reality of how its going to be.

never trust politicians huh? and dont moan when they lie and fail to deliver
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Dibzzz Posted on 10/01/2019 16:43

Brexit

 
[^]
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 16:51

Brexit

 
Ironops

Only fools trust politicians. My memory tells me there were many lies from both sides and we were all left trying to filter where we stood. I took real-life experiences as my guide and ticked my box with honesty. My tick then remains the tick I would make today and nothing has changed my way of thinking.
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plazmuh Posted on 10/01/2019 17:00
Edited On: 10/01/2019 17:01
Brexit

 
Unless we embace the Euro/ ££ issue and adopt E.U workers

rights and Working Hours..

How can you say we are totally in..

You cannot because we are certainly not..

Corbyns ideas actually have E.U support..

Whereas Mays secret deals with the Ulster Mob show she

has little or no interest other than Her Partys self intertest.

Much Love
Plazmuh



Link: Nice to see we have money for something mind
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Ironops Posted on 10/01/2019 17:01

Brexit

 
fair enough - so you then have to accept brexit however its served up
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upthechels Posted on 10/01/2019 17:07

Brexit

 
None of us will be 100% happy with any outcome. Even the PM is not happy at what she is being tasked to do.

I'm prepared to be happy with some things and unhappy about other things.
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plazmuh Posted on 10/01/2019 21:02

Brexit

 
Never mind Brexitt

May has said Austertity is over a few times

This is a big fat lie..

Link: xxx
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Starbuck Posted on 10/01/2019 22:06

Brexit

 
May's deal is better than no deal.
At least her deal prevents the likely aftermath of a border with Ireland that is inevitable with the No Deal.

easiest solutions are Ireland leaves EU too or we give NI back to Ireland (my favourite)
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atypical_boro Posted on 10/01/2019 22:14

Brexit

 
Starbuck, if they are the “easiest” solutions, you can see why there’s an enormous problem?
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erimus74 Posted on 10/01/2019 22:31
Edited On: 10/01/2019 23:13
Brexit

 
Your idiots should’ve put together a clear, and crucially, honest plan then, shouldn’t you?

Vote for con artists and shysters, and then you’re surprised by their inability to produce your unobtainable fantasy.

Of course, it’s now everyone else’s fault.

Why do certain posters who wanted remain constantly name call people who have a differnt opinion to themselves
And if youre talking about con artisits etc, then is there a bigger one than the very person shouting for the remain side, none other than Tony Blair, if I had one reason alone to vote leave then he would be the one reason
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HolgateCorner Posted on 10/01/2019 23:18

Brexit

 
The Brexit vote was for a direction of travel in my opinion, away from a Federal European State.

If the referendum paper had asked if the people of this country wanted to be -

An independent United Kingdom, or
Integrated into a United States of Europe

What would the answer have been?

I would suggest we would be having very few arguments right now about shades of exiting or remaining.

And on the Ireland question, yes you have a proper border. If the Irish want to continue to be separated for whatever reason then you get what you get.
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Trimbletow Posted on 10/01/2019 23:23

Brexit

 
Forget Brexit, where’s our transfer signings ?
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billyzin Posted on 10/01/2019 23:27

Brexit

 
The trouble is nobody actually knew what they were voting for.

Although there can be little doubt that "immigration" was a massive driver in the minds of many brexiters.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 10/01/2019 23:29

Brexit

 
I think it was very clear what people were voting for.

Stay in or pull out.

How much clearer do you want to be?
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erimus74 Posted on 10/01/2019 23:32

Brexit

 
The trouble is nobody actually knew what they were voting for.

Although there can be little doubt that "immigration" was a massive driver in the minds of many brexiters.

I knew what I was voting for & still do to this day, why is that been repeated time & time again, of course people knew.
30% couldn't be bothered to vote, that is where the difference lies not people who had a different opinion to remainers
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foomanboro Posted on 11/01/2019 00:10

Brexit

 
If only leavers dads had “pulled out” sooner, we wouldn’t be in this mess [;)]
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Scrote Posted on 11/01/2019 01:50

Brexit

 
HC - "And on the Ireland question, yes you have a proper border. If the Irish want to continue to be separated for whatever reason then you get what you get."

If the Irish want to continue to be separated from what? The UK?

You do understand that Ireland is a completely different country don't you?

One that is in the EU and will remain in the EU after we leave. Of our own free will.

And once we leave we'll need to either put up a border (which we can't for legal reasons to do with the GFA) or we trade on punitive (to us) tariffs and make no checks for immigration etc.

Basically we end up being in the EU without any of the benefits and with a massively reduced trading capacity.

Hence the backstop. The EU are insisting on it because they don't trust the UK to abide by any agreement that so obviously puts us at a massive competitive disadvantage.
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otto62 Posted on 11/01/2019 03:26

Brexit

 
I'm looking forward to a no deal Brexit and seeing all the doom merchants having to try and explain why there aren't massive queues and food shortages and job losses and etc.
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festa5 Posted on 11/01/2019 06:35

Brexit

 
Individual leavers may well have known what they personally thought they were voting for.

But they can't possibly claim to know what other leave voters were voting for.

I'm sure some will have voted to leave any cost, regardless of what that looks like.

Some will have voted thinking it'd mean a completely free break from the EU.

Others will have thought we'd be able to continue with many of the benefits but also be able to stop free movement etc.

So yes, some leave voters will have known what they wanted. But thats different from knowing what a vote to 'leave' would actually mean in reality.

Surely no-one can claim they knew this?

That's what people mean when they say leave voters didn't know what they were voting for.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 11/01/2019 08:07

Brexit

 
Scrote - with regard to Ireland what I meant by separated was separated within themselves rather than being a unified island.

I believe that Ireland is only separated because that is how the Irish themselves want it.

I can’t be bothered replying to the rest of your post, I think what I said was clear enough for normal people.
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Scrote Posted on 11/01/2019 09:05

Brexit

 
HC - I'm not sure how my response is any less valid given your clarification.

If we give the island of Ireland (North and South) a free vote on unification what do you think the result would be?

Why do you think the GFA doesn't have that as an option?
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atypical_boro Posted on 11/01/2019 09:18

Brexit

 
"I believe that Ireland is only separated because that is how the Irish themselves want it."

Really HC? You think Ireland wanted to give up 6 of its counties to the UK? I would say thats fairly naive TBH.

That said, lots of Brits are very naive about Ireland, not least the former NI Cabinet Minister.

I was talking to a Brexiter colleague the other day and it became very clear that she didn't really understand that Ireland was two separate countries. I suppose if you live in that bubble its easy to understand why you wouldn't have given it a second thought when voting or why you don't understand that we can't just have a new border or a border in the Irish Sea.
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 11/01/2019 09:19

Brexit

 
Holgate Corner... All I can say is Wow. Nah, no ones that fecking stupid. Surely.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 11/01/2019 09:26

Brexit

 
Well I’m pleased I’ve got you all thinking a bit because we do lack a bit of that on here sometimes.

And you are right that I don’t fully understand the reasons why Ireland remains part Ireland and part UK (just to clarify it hopefully for one or two of you) but I do think that if the Irish as a collective wanted a united Ireland then that is what they would have.
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atypical_boro Posted on 11/01/2019 09:29

Brexit

 
HC, I agree on your final sentence. But it isn't just as simple as saying 'they don't ALL want to be unified therefore they must want to be divided'.

There are almost 2 million people in NI with probably close to 2 million slightly differing views.

The problem with the border isn't just about the division of Ireland though, its also about uncontrolled immigration to the UK which many Brexiters are very upset about.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 11/01/2019 09:36

Brexit

 
I know the UK/EU border running across Ireland will be a problem but my main point is that it exists and so we have to recognise it exists and get on with it.

If Ireland was united then the problem wouldn’t be there and that would surely be much better for all the Irish who live in both Eire and Northern Ireland regardless of their religion.

And couldn’t we give the Northern Irish dual nationality for those who feel strongly British?
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atypical_boro Posted on 11/01/2019 09:45

Brexit

 
HC - it exists, but mamy people don't want to recognise that it exists twice a day on their way to work and back, in what they deem to be 'one nation'. Its the allowance of that subjectivity which has allowed peace to prevail. Take away the ability to apply that subjectivity and we could have all the same problems we had before. The words 'get on with it' should never be used on this subject as it doesn't wash with a huge proportion of the Irish population.
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 11/01/2019 10:47

Brexit

 
All people who are born in the island of Ireland can apply for Irish passports.
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LeitrimBoro Posted on 11/01/2019 10:49

Brexit

 
Anyone born in Northern Ireland can apply for a British passport. As for why a British border was put in Ireland? The British.
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otto62 Posted on 11/01/2019 10:54

Brexit

 
Don't make the hard border the one between Ireland and NI. Instead make the hard border between NI and the rest of the UK.
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Ironops Posted on 11/01/2019 10:56

Brexit

 
What an appalling lack of a basic understanding of how our country works...[|)]
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erimus74 Posted on 11/01/2019 10:59

Brexit

 
So on the other hand festa, how can remainders stared they know what will happen once we do leave, shouldn’t that be they assume/think what could happen
It does actually work both ways
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atypical_boro Posted on 11/01/2019 11:26
Edited On: 11/01/2019 11:27
Brexit

 
"Instead make the hard border between NI and the rest of the UK."

Tell that to the Northern Irish unionists. Including the ones propping up our government.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 11/01/2019 13:04

Brexit

 
Fair comment atypical I don’t believe anybody wants to do anything which gives terrorists an excuse to start killing people again.

What I mean by get on with it applies to any other UK/EU border - what is the problem with our civil servants finding a smooth way to run the border? There are plenty of smooth borders on mainland Europe, Switzerland being a good example, the Irish/UK Irish border will be as difficult or easy as the authorities want to make it.
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lapennabianca Posted on 11/01/2019 13:15

Brexit

 
"There are plenty of smooth borders on mainland Europe, Switzerland being a good example, the Irish/UK Irish border will be as difficult or easy as the authorities want to make it."

The Swiss have Freedom on Movement and are part of EFTA. You can't pick and choose between the four freedoms. So unless those that voted for Brexit give up their opposition to open borders, then there's no answer coming from mainland Europe.
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atypical_boro Posted on 11/01/2019 14:28
Edited On: 11/01/2019 17:08
Brexit

 
"the Irish/UK Irish border will be as difficult or easy as the authorities want to make it"

If only it really was that simple.

The EU don't want a hard border.
The Tories don't want a hard border.
The Northern Irish don't want a hard border.
The Southern Irish don't want a hard border.
The hardline Brexiteers (the majority of the 52%) do want a hard border to control immigration, they cannot be ignored because that's what led to Brexit in the first place.
The DUP don't want a hard border, but they don't want a border in the sea, they also cannot be ignored because they're propping up our government.

What's the solution?
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plazmuh Posted on 11/01/2019 15:43

Brexit

 
[^][^]

Link: xxx
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festa5 Posted on 11/01/2019 16:33

Brexit

 
"So on the other hand festa, how can remainders stared they know what will happen once we do leave, shouldn’t that be they assume/think what could happen
It does actually work both ways"

They don't. No-one does. But remainers didn't vote to leave did they? They knew what their preferred outcome would mean.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 11/01/2019 18:55

Brexit

 
With regard to the hard border seemingly only wanted by Brexiters in relation to people movement, I think that could be managed by having ‘Irish Citizen’ priority rules at the border controls. Irish people and businesses who regularly cross the border might have to apply for suitable documentation or electronic passes but it’s 2019 and we have enough computer technology to help us with these things..

I do think these things are being held up as excuses, we can’t do this, we can’t do that, yes we can would sound better.
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plazmuh Posted on 11/01/2019 20:36

Brexit

 
Europe seems to get more Appealing by the hour

[xx(][xx(]

Link: xxx
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Scrote Posted on 11/01/2019 23:35

Brexit

 
HC - the arch brexiteers told us that they had a technological solution to the Irish border.

Now they're complaining about the backstop.

A technological solution means that the backstop doesn't ever come into play.

So why don't they publish their wonderful solution and let the world benefit..?

Oh, right. They're full of it as they have been every step of the way.

The Irish border is a UK problem. We are obliged (by international law) to solve it.
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erimus74 Posted on 12/01/2019 00:44

Brexit

 
"So on the other hand festa, how can remainders stared they know what will happen once we do leave, shouldn’t that be they assume/think what could happen
It does actually work both ways"

They don't. No-one does. But remainers didn't vote to leave did they? They knew what their preferred outcome would mean.

No, they assume [^]
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HolgateCorner Posted on 12/01/2019 01:00

Brexit

 
Scrote- I’ve given my views on how to solve it.

In my ideal world the Irish would collectively occupy one Ireland in the same way they play for one international rugby team.

In the divided world we make things easier for the sensible people in Ireland and Northern Ireland who want to cross the border as if it doesn’t exist. The technology is there but you need politicians who want to make it happen.

I’m a Remainer, I believe in teamwork, maybe that will help you understand where I am coming from on this. I’m looking for a good solution, not the promotion of division and problems that there has been over the years.
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TrappaTony Posted on 12/01/2019 01:04

Brexit

 
eave never mentioned leaving with a deal attached -

If we don't the car industry will collapse in this country and anybody with half a brain realises that would be bad for Britain so you obviously are not in possession of one. Doh!!
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TrappaTony Posted on 12/01/2019 01:55

Brexit

 
atypical the border problem has been created by us. The border is between a "third country" and the EU. We are leaving the customs union and the single market so there can be no frictionless trade. We have created this conundrum but have no idea how to fix it.
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UKLL1981 Posted on 12/01/2019 10:10

Brexit

 
Delay leaving by six months. Have a second referendum with 2 options: Leave with Mays deal or leave with no deal.

That way it truly does come down the people and not the politicians with their own agendas. The politicians wouldn’t be able to complain, they like to think they know better and their view counts more than ours but the choice should be made by the masses and millions not career politicians thinking of their own agendas and political careers.

It’s the only way to respect the original referendum and let the people choose. It ends the uncertainty and the stupidity of politicians refusing to accept a no deal or back Mays deal without offering an alternative. If the government had any sense this is what they would do, it takes the responsibility away from them and puts it on the people, Mays deal probably gets through and it stops Corbyn’s pathetic and dangerous attempt to grab power on the back of Brexit at the detriment of the country.
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atypical_boro Posted on 12/01/2019 17:27
Edited On: 12/01/2019 17:28
Brexit

 
Trappa, I fully agree. Brexit is not the problem of the Irish, the EU or the majority of the Northern Irish population.

It’s a vocal few people in England who need to be appeased (it isn’t all Leavers), about a border most of them have probably never even crossed.

The technology doesn’t exist yet. People have been saying that’s the solution, but it’s yet to be produced or used elsewhere. It’s entirely a problem of the UK’s making as a result of Brexit, yet you get people saying it should be solved by someone else. “The EU should sort it out”/“Ireland should reunify”/“Ireland should leave the EU as well.”

It’s been the elephant in the room from day one, but most Leavers won’t admit they never gave it a second thought before they created the issue.
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festa5 Posted on 12/01/2019 17:39

Brexit

 

"Delay leaving by six months. Have a second referendum with 2 options: Leave with Mays deal or leave with no deal"

Why the 6 month delay?
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dreamdealer Posted on 12/01/2019 17:40

Brexit

 
How did the Boro get on?
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Scrote Posted on 12/01/2019 17:42

Brexit

 
"Corbyn’s pathetic and dangerous attempt to grab power"

Wow - someone really hates democracy.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 12/01/2019 17:45

Brexit

 
Atypical - you seem to know a lot about what can or cannot be achieved on the Irish border.

I would suggest the technology is there to allow free access for Irish residents who regularly cross the border but they would have to be under fear of jail if they abused it. I appreciate the imposition of unnecessary tariffs by the EU would be detrimental both ways but that would be disappointing wouldn’t it if it happened?

Just out of interest do you know how many cross border vehicle and people movements there are currently in Ireland? What’s the scale of the problem?
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atypical_boro Posted on 12/01/2019 18:08

Brexit

 
HC - the technology is currently vapourware. Assuming it worked, how could it be abused and by whom?

The number of crossings isn’t relevant. Irish republicans view it as sacred, it’s about the principle of having a visible or invisible border.

I’d say there are a very, very significant number of crossings every day though. That would increase if it was the gateway to the UK from the EU with no checks.

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berwick_pils Posted on 12/01/2019 19:24

Brexit

 
There was a small, peaceful brexit betray protest in Redcar today, where working class people called on their MP Anna Turley to represent the democratic wishes of her constituency. [^]

Link: www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/no-deal-r
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HolgateCorner Posted on 12/01/2019 21:46

Brexit

 
Atypical - what I was thinking about was a special border pass available to Irish residents who either live near the border (say within 25 miles) or need to cross regularly for business or personal reasons. They would quickly get through a barrier post crossing with a computerised recognition system. By abuse I mean anybody ferrying illegal goods or persons through the border because it would rely on a lot of trust.

There is no logical reason why the Ireland border would become more busy post Brexit because it will be controlled in just the same way as any border. Even if illegal immigrants think a land route is easy to cross to get to say London via Scotland these could still be weeded out at the port before getting on the ferry.
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atypical_boro Posted on 12/01/2019 21:50
Edited On: 12/01/2019 21:52
Brexit

 
You misunderstand me, I meant the number of crossings would increase if there is no border but the UK are out of then EU. It would be an unmanned gateway to the UK from Europe.

Irish identifying citizens (on either side of the border) don’t want a “special pass”, they don’t believe the British have any business there and don’t believe any kind of border should exist. The fact there’s not been one is why we’ve had peace for a long time.

The technology touted to make it an “invisible” border to Irish passport holders doesn’t yet exist.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 12/01/2019 22:01

Brexit

 
I think the Irish are right, the British don’t have any business there, Ireland should be a single country.

I’m just trying to suggest how it could work allowing for the situation that exists.

The only other way would be to move the physical customs and immigration border back to the UK mainland but have an invisible border for administrative purposes as now but that’s probably too difficult for the civil servants to get their heads around.

On a positive though, the Southern Irish should be committed to helping keep the border invisible. Do you think immigration into Ireland is likely to be a problem post Brexit?
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bear66 Posted on 12/01/2019 22:08

Brexit

 
Ireland already has twice the immigration levels per head of population from outside the EU as the UK.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 12/01/2019 22:41

Brexit

 
Is that the case bear66?

And what is the feeling in Ireland about that?

I suppose it would be ironic for a nation with a long history of emigration to now have an issue with immigration.

Looking back at Cameron’s decision to promise/call a referendum and Farage’s levering for a referendum over many years it’s amazing how the Irish border question didn’t have any kind of profile during the debate (unless I missed it). At the end of the day it is now at the centre of the ‘deal’.
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atypical_boro Posted on 12/01/2019 22:51

Brexit

 
HC - that’s already been touted. DUP won’t have it and they’re calling the shots.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 12/01/2019 23:00

Brexit

 
I think politicians like Cameron and Farage have been irresponsible, I think very few voters would have wanted to risk the peace in Northern Ireland without a workable plan being in place.
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bear66 Posted on 12/01/2019 23:09

Brexit

 
It is Holgate. We are near the bottom of the EU immigration table. I'm not aware of Ireland having the concerns raised in the UK, possibly, as you say, for historic reasons.
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atypical_boro Posted on 12/01/2019 23:39

Brexit

 
HC - I remember thinking before the referendum that surely the British public would know what a big deal it was, even without it being debated much. It’s as if the Remain side just assumed voters would consider what would happen to our single border with the EU, it would be logical to do so.

The Leave side obviously deliberately kept quiet, perhaps cunningly knowing that avid Leavers would pay it no attention.

I’m yet to speak to a Leaver who says they thought about it and knew what they thought would happen with it when they voted.
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DowningAlbion Posted on 13/01/2019 00:04

Brexit

 
People want "democracy" frozen to that point in time in 2016. It doesn't work like that...

If enough of our representatives in Parliament believe a deal set forward is a colossal XXXXXX-up they can block it. If public opinion has shifted we can have another referendum to gauge public opinion

Why would anyone be against democracy? [:D]
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