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Cooper6711 Posted on 06/11/2018 23:48
Child arrangement order
 
 
Any other dads been through this process? Currently got one ongoing fir back for 1st adjourned hearing in a couple weeks. Tried to do it all myself and have so far but despite not having much money have hired a partner in a law firm now to take over. Such a waste when all this money could be spent on my daughter
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Flood Posted on 07/11/2018 00:22

Child arrangement order

 
The moment you involve a legal process it's going to cost you. Try and come up with a plan with the mum - just be respectful and try and work something out. It's not a game of who wins, its what's best for the kid.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 00:52

Child arrangement order

 
I had no other option I havenít seen my daughter since July. I have even asked to see her in a contact centre but she refused that in court last time as was no judge to grant me access. I have said in my CAFCASS report I would be willing to mediate but mum refused.
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hicktonpen10 Posted on 07/11/2018 06:21

Child arrangement order

 
The key is to present as reasonable. Focus on your daughter and not into slagging off ex although where she has acted unreasonably this needs to be highlighted. Any evidence of your attempts to arrange contact should also be in your evidence.
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Mr_HOlgate2 Posted on 07/11/2018 06:42

Child arrangement order

 
Just be aware that once you have one - when she doesnít adhere to it very little happens anyway
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AlBoro1984 Posted on 07/11/2018 06:42

Child arrangement order

 
You can represent yourself. Donít worry about all the jargon Court / Judge will support you with this.

As others have said just try not to make it tit for tat and be prepared to compromise where reasonable.
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 07/11/2018 11:22
Edited On: 07/11/2018 11:57
Child arrangement order

 
I apologise about my post. Some mates of mine was treated badly by the court systems and they were as cooperative towards their ex's despite this not being reciprocated. They were only allowed access during the most inconvenient times etc.

Some fights you have to lose but fathers have rights too.

Courts can be a tough gig, that's all I was saying.




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go_nads Posted on 07/11/2018 11:47

Child arrangement order

 
Worst advice that I have ever read in the above post, grow up EP, this is a bloke wanting to see his kid FFS.
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Marvanelli Posted on 07/11/2018 11:50

Child arrangement order

 
How hasn't Proudfoot been banned already?

Absolute be!!end of the highest order.
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go_nads Posted on 07/11/2018 11:55

Child arrangement order

 
Here is the legal stance - you want to have contact with your child, the court will order contact as long as it is in "THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILD"

That quote is the most important thing you need to focus on and ensure that you provide ample evidence that this is what you want.

Do not rise to any bait, do not get frustrated, do not resort to insults and try not to be critical.

It is important that you engage with the CAFCASS Officer, they are there to oversee everything.


Offering to go for contact at a contact centre is a good start, ask that this is supervised and that a report is prepared for the court. If you have good contact with your child, you can then prove this and contact can be progressed.

What is your ultimate goal? If it is staying contact, don't get down (as hard as this is) by slowly building up to this.

If you ex is being the complete cow, ask the court to appoint a rule 16 Guardian. This is where a solicitor is appointed to represent your children in the proceedings. Not only will they ensure that your child's wishes are met, depending on your income it will be easier to get legal aid.

There are new rules coming in, where a child refuses to have contact with a parent, the court will be forced to ask why and if a parent is prejudicing a child, welfare questions will be asked.

Now we all know that the advantage is to the mother in these types of matters. BUT as long as you are reasonable and sensible and do what the CAFCASS Officer asks of you, you will get contact. The main issue arises when a bloke is worn down by the process and either gives in or blows up - both understandable but you must not do either.
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go_nads Posted on 07/11/2018 11:58

Child arrangement order

 
PS, the judges and the CAFCASS Officer are fully aware that legal aid has been massively cut and as a result there are a lot more litigants in person, they will help you as much as they can.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 13:27

Child arrangement order

 
I get on well with the CAFCASS officer and the report from my side is all fact based with no mud slinging etc. Unfortunately my ex didnít do that but resorted to various mud slinging antics. Itís quite a bitter break up and the reason I have hired a solicitor now is I donít want her losing her rag in court and it making it look like Iím winding her up. I have various evidence via text messages which show itís about money which is denies in her CAFCASS report. The solicitor has these now and has basically indicated that her account is all over the place and mine is attempting to come to a solution.

My daughter is 4 and in the report my ex even states she is missing me and asks everyday about me. I would never hurt her and I dote on her.

I realise itís gonna cost a fortune but itís too important to make a mistake.
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go_nads Posted on 07/11/2018 13:40

Child arrangement order

 
Sounds like youíll be fine. It can be a long process and thatís the thing that is most disheartening about the current system. Stick in there, usually once mum has got over the fact that contact is going to take place and dealt with whatever emotions need to be dealt with - they find that father having contact helps them massively. They will find it makes life easier, they have a reliable sitter on tap etc.

Shame that money is normally at the centre of all these kind of disputes. We all want our kids to have everything but practically, we canít.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 13:46

Child arrangement order

 
She knows Iíll get contact but is gonna drag it out by the looks of it. She knows how it works she has one for her other children with her ex husband who all left to live with him in the end.

My daughter hasnít seen me, her nanna or grandad, auntie, uncle, cousins and even her own sister since July. Iím just worried where she thinks we all are
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go_nads Posted on 07/11/2018 14:11

Child arrangement order

 
Do you have Parental Responsibility?
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 15:16

Child arrangement order

 
Yes I do
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go_nads Posted on 07/11/2018 15:27

Child arrangement order

 
Legally you have just as much right to see and make decisions on behalf of your daughter as your ex does. This is where fathers are let down under the current process, the law ďstatesĒ one thing but we know in practice it doesnít work out that way.

Itís a shame fathers for justice were so stupid in the way they approached the argument, they had gotten publicity and a platform to push for reform, but then went mental.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 16:34

Child arrangement order

 
Oh yeah I know I have joint PR and what it entities me too. Unfortunately if the mum says you canít see her then thatís it. I have made sure I get all school reports joint letters etc
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 07/11/2018 20:16

Child arrangement order

 
You guys are a bit green around the gills on this topic.

I am sorry but if it has gone as far as the courthouse then you need to speak softly but carry a big stick.

Three of my mates spent years having to reschedule their lives, reschedule holidays and generally playing second fiddle whilst their ex's decided when they could see their kids.

I am sorry but that is how it is.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 20:43

Child arrangement order

 
EP I know negotiation is out the window thatís why Iím at this stage. Iím under no illusion itís a slow process but Iíll pay whatever I have to and take as long as it takes to get her back. Iím confident an interim order will be granted at the next hearing which is better then nothing as Iíll get to see her and then push on for joint custody
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 07/11/2018 20:56

Child arrangement order

 
Cooper I am NOT having a go at you btw.I wasn't with my post earlier which everyone had a dig at me about. Not everyone can afford solicitors.

One mate of mine went out of his way to be kind and supportive despite having a really strong case. The other party just tried to be as awkward as possible.

I hope things work out for you. I didn't mean to cause you any offence today.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 21:30

Child arrangement order

 
EP I didnít see the post earlier donít worry
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Barnsy Posted on 07/11/2018 23:20

Child arrangement order

 
I haven't read this thread in detail, some good advice has already been displayed,

Is it too late to consider mediation?
A professional mediator is supposed to be impartial and has no stake in your relationship or in the outcome. They can help you reach an agreement without the need to go to court.

The negative is that it would cost and would need the agreement of both parties.

Above all, as someone above stated, whatever route you take avoid allowing frustrations to take over.

And obviously, avoid name calling
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Cooper6711 Posted on 07/11/2018 23:24

Child arrangement order

 
Yeah mediation is out tv window. I stated I would be happy to mediate but she wonít. As my solicitor stated the CAFCASS report shows one side clearly attempting to resolve the dispute and the other side doing everything possible to hold it up
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Barnsy Posted on 07/11/2018 23:28
Edited On: 07/11/2018 23:31
Child arrangement order

 
I should have added;

You can't force your ex to go to mediation, if this is the case you can go on your own.

By doing this you'll prove that you have taken reasonable steps if you later have to go to court.


Sorry, I've just seen your post above.
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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 10:20

Child arrangement order

 
"You guys are a bit green around the gills on this topic."

EP, who exactly does this refer to? Bearing in mind I have been involved in family law for the past 20 years and having reviewed literally thousands of cases I would say that the advice given so far makes perfect sense.

What did not make sense was your original post, which you edited, not having the courage to stand by it - basically your advice was to turn this into the biggest fight the OP could muster in the courts.

All your original advice would do is cause further animosity towards the OP by his ex, alienate him to the courts, cost him many more thousands than he is already looking at and ultimately risk not seeing his child. It is stupid to think that the courts are trying to stop a father seeing his child, but you have to look at the bigger picture, if a child is settled and well cared for by mother, no court is going to risk that status.

We know that the family courts are significantly weighted towards mother, that was never in dispute but it is laughable that you think you are an expert on this issue, just because a couple of your "mates" had a hard time of it - and if they listened to your XXXXXX poor advice, I am not surprised.

As I said, the law is currently being changed to try and ensure that where a child is prejudiced against one parent by the other, findings will be made. What actions the court will be able to take in those circumstances is moot at the moment. A father already has the option of seeking a penal notice where mother refuses to co-operate with an order, but the courts are very reluctant to act on those orders.

As per my initial response to your badly thought out post, it really is time you have a look at some of the nonsense you post and grew up. I really struggle to find what you add to the board and why the site admin entertain the XXXXXX you spout.

I get that you're a "joke" character but when you try and give inflammatory advice in such a sensitive matter, I question your motives and your common sense.
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 08/11/2018 10:43

Child arrangement order

 
'We know that the family courts are significantly weighted towards mother'

It doesn't have to be Go Nads, I didn't give my mates any advice at all either, just thought they were messed about a lot with adjourned hearings and settlements that really inconvenienced them. Being really awkward with custody times then being dumped on at a moments notice.

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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 11:49

Child arrangement order

 
This shows your complete lack of understanding. Of course it will be weighted towards mother, child care is a matriarchal discipline in most cases.

Look at the vast majority of two parent families, the mother will carry out the majority of the day to day care. Look at families where there has been a considered approach following relationship breakdown, in just about every case, mother will care for the child the majority of the time.

That is just the way it is, in most cases father would find it very difficult to cope full time for a child - not in all cases, but in the majority.

Now we look at the legal test "in the best interests of the child". In most cases the child's best interests are met by being cared for by mother, they usually have a stronger bond with mother, mother has carried out most of the day to day care, mother's have that ability to know how to best comfort a child etc etc. No judge is going to wrench a child away from their principle carer (this includes father where mother is not a good parent), when that child is happy and being cared for to a good standard.

So, as regrettable as it is, and I have every sympathy for any father who is a decent bloke and caught up in this type of mess, it does have to be.

Just to add a bit of perspective, I have worked on plenty of cases where a child has been placed with father (drug dependent mother's in the most part) and mother has wanted a level of contact in excess of what father wished - the court will side with father, because it is in the BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILD.

As I said, if the OP is reasonable and follows my advice, usually contact will progress, especially where his daughter has been asking for him.

The big problem arises when a child is adamant they no longer wish to see their father. In most cases of this type, there is fault on both sides. It is very unusual for me to review a case where father is blameless and his child does not want to see him. It may be that mother has prejudiced the child too, but as I said, it is very rare for a decent bloke not to be able to see his child, where he has stayed calm and ensured everything he does is best for the child. Very difficult at times I agree.
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 08/11/2018 13:23

Child arrangement order

 
Fair enough go nads. Lack of understanding hardly. If a case has gotten that far it suggests two different perspectives and having a trained legal may be advisable, or someone like yourself.

Every case is different.

Some Dads don't do themselves any favours either.

For the record I know couples who wont split up because NEITHER want custody of the kids!!

They would rather stay together in an dysfunctional environment and carry on neglecting them as a couple!

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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 13:41

Child arrangement order

 
Horrible state of affairs. I'd do literally anything for my kids, most parents are exactly the same.

If you don't prioritise the needs of your children over your own needs, you don't deserve kids.

As a society we are moving the right way, father's are a lot more involved with their children now than they used to. I don't work Friday's, the other half only works two days a week (more for her sanity) and I love the time just the two of us spend together. My father would be die at the thought of having to care for a toddler for more than ten minutes!
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Manaboutadog Posted on 08/11/2018 13:44

Child arrangement order

 
Presumed Shared Custody anyone?
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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 14:22

Child arrangement order

 
That would be a significant shift which I am sure would work to a degree in a lot of circumstances. ie father is entitled to 50%, but the actual amount would be agreed between the parties.

The problem arises when a Dad want's 50% just to spite the ex and dumps the kids left right and centre, fails to pick them up, is late.

Ideally there would be a lot more support for mother's and father's but there isn't the money out there. Hence lack of court time, available judges, massive wait for CAFCASS Reports and for contact centres, no legal aid funding following massive cuts, no psychological or counselling support, no independent social work involvement.

I'm not sure if the OP is aware that the CAFCASS Officers are also the Children's Guardian in care proceedings and whilst it is unfortunate that there are delays when they are involved in contact matters, they are often having to deal with very serious welfare concerns. In the general scheme of things, a settled kid not having contact could be seen as less important when another child's safety or well-being is at risk. It shouldn't happen but following the cuts it is inevitable.
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 08/11/2018 15:30

Child arrangement order

 
Go_nads! Go_nads!

He sticks up for the Dads!

He is an expert on Child Welfare!

...and can hold his own with Uni grads!
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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 15:37

Child arrangement order

 
Hardly.
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Manaboutadog Posted on 08/11/2018 15:51

Child arrangement order

 
'The problem arises when a Dad want's 50% just to spite the ex...'

Exactly the same could be said about mothers. That's why PSC is the only reasonable *starting point*.

Also, I'm led to believe that Legal Aid is available if the accuser (usually the mother) alleges Domestic Violence.

Given that no proof is required, applications on these grounds have increased exponentially. This means that Fathers not only lose contact with their children, they're also labelled Domestic Abusers.



Link: Legal Aid Misuse
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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 16:05

Child arrangement order

 
Totally agree. It's a hard one to get balance, a normal person takes the stance that they do what is right for the child, not every parent is balanced and that stands for both father's and mother's.

For every mother who does everything she can to destabilise contact, there is a bloke who can't be bothered or poses a risk to children.

Even where father has battered mother in the past, if father poses no risk to the children, CAFCASS will try and establish contact of some sort if it is the best interests of the child with support to attend domestic violence classes. There is also stuff like the Separated Parents course,. which seeks to educate parents into both sides of the argument and how to settle differences, this will only work if both parents are willing though.

Link: SPIP
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go_nads Posted on 08/11/2018 16:11

Child arrangement order

 
Just to add a bit of balance to the article you linked. A significant percentage of that increase in applications for FLS Injunctions, is probably a result of legal aid cuts for Private Family work.


Ordinarily, before the cuts, if mother opposed contact on the basis of domestic violence, they would just get legal aid to cover the contact/residence application.

Because you can only get funding to cover contact/residence (CAO now) if there are allegations of DV, parties are now having to go down that route first.


If mother did make an allegation of DV that was opposed though, a Finding of Fact hearing would need to take place and a judge would look at the evidence. It's a chew on. but the truth normally outs.
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Manaboutadog Posted on 08/11/2018 16:17
Edited On: 08/11/2018 16:27
Child arrangement order

 
Mainly agree. That's why presumed shared custody should be the starting point...it isn't.

Mothers are just as likely to have abused the father or be 'not bothered' about parenting. They are much more likely to commit filicide and they have a parental opt-out option (both before and after birth) which is denied to fathers.

In 2018 we should have equality but the courts still favour mothers.
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EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 09/11/2018 12:01

Child arrangement order

 
I knew a couple who went to court, loser was ordered custody of the kids!

Dad was ecstatic when the verdict was announced and skipped off to the boozer , Mum in tears.
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TheyurinatedinVilnius Posted on 09/11/2018 12:21
Edited On: 09/11/2018 12:22
Child arrangement order

 
"it is very rare for a decent bloke not to be able to see his child"

You reviewed all CA orders then ? Why is there no mother's for justice ?

Isn't CAFCASS, an orgainsation declared unfit for purpose, just the militant arm of Womens Aid ?

Link: Social Workers with a gender Agenda
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UAUA Posted on 09/11/2018 12:24

Child arrangement order

 
Course you did.
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Manaboutadog Posted on 09/11/2018 13:01

Child arrangement order

 
I think you'll find Women's Aid are the militant arm of Women's Aid.

They are the people who successfully campaigned to deprive male victims of Domestic Abuse of any refuge.
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Cooper6711 Posted on 09/11/2018 16:12

Child arrangement order

 
Iíve found CAFCASS to be very impartial so far in my process. There report recognises that my daughter should be seeing me and that itís very clear that access being stopped has affected her.
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TheyurinatedinVilnius Posted on 10/11/2018 13:38

Child arrangement order

 
Then consider yourself very, very lucky.

It is not the norm. It is of course how it should be with a presumption of contact unless there are cogent welfare concerns i.e. not the usual plethora of baseless allegations with of course no consequences when they are proven false.

Link: Cafcass and Womens Aid love in debunked
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