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Lefty Posted on 10/10/2018 16:42
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate
 
 
One of the lead authors and campaigners for brexit, though an advocate of a staged brexit via EFTA/EEA first has some food for thought for all of us, Leavers and Remainers.

Well, I think so, but I may be biased not just as against Brexit but also against Tory governments. So I would be interested especially if Leave voters think Peter North has a point or if you disagree?



Link: ERG motives are purely about money, he argues
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zorro_mfc Posted on 11/10/2018 07:03

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Lefty where do you see the EU project heading without the UK. How do you see the EU in the next 10 years or So.

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bear66 Posted on 11/10/2018 08:02

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
It's difficult to see it moving away from its current position. A very successful trading bloc.
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foomanboro Posted on 11/10/2018 08:18

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
The EU will done just fine without us. Certainly they will fair much better than us.
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Dibzzz Posted on 11/10/2018 08:48

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
28 out of 29 Cabinet Ministers backed staying in the Single Market before and after the referendum.

We're talking the main Brexiters here.

Davis
Johnson
Gove
Fox
Mogg

Why the change of tune?

Lies perhaps?
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Stigmata Posted on 11/10/2018 09:23

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"but I may be biased not just as against Brexit but also against Tory governments."

You Lefty biased ? [:O]

Maybe you're Corbyn's Dad, but horizontal not biased.
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 15:15

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Zorro,

I don't know. Probably not much change really.

What seems self evident is that it is less likely to move in a direction we want without us in pushing our own agenda and more likely to move in a direction we don't want without us there to put a brake on things.

I think brexiters forget just how big an influence we had in the EU and just how respected we used to be.

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Capybara Posted on 11/10/2018 16:09

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
That kind of assumes they knew that in the first place.
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 16:51

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
True.

They kind of talk about Brussels as if it is a thing, a separate entity, rather than a collection of 28 member states all with an opinion, agenda, often competing, but operating around a common rule book.
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Grevis Posted on 11/10/2018 17:17

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"""Interesting brexit view""""

No, not really. There's absolutely nothing of substance there in that rant at all. It's simply a petty attack on Boris and JRM and tells us nothing about them we don't already know.

And really interesting you're advocating this Peter North individual given his bigoted and racist views, Lefty. You should know better.
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bear66 Posted on 11/10/2018 18:20

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
That's the point. Nothing of substance from Johnson and JRM.
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Grevis Posted on 11/10/2018 18:28

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Nothing of substance about nothing of substance. [rle]
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 19:11

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
'And really interesting you're advocating this Peter North individual given his bigoted and racist views, Lefty. You should know better.'

I'm not advocating his bigoted racist views, which North clearly has, unfortunately. In fact I have challenged him on them.

With regard to the EU, EFTA, WTO, Customs, Tariffs, non tariff barriers North is one of the more knowledgeable people around and worth listening to on these matters. He also has knowledge and interesting opinions on sovereignty and democracy or lack of it in the EU.

His racism, which he doesn't think he exhibits but so often leaps out on his periodic rants, tends not to have much bearing on those issues, as it seems confined to muslims and is coloured by personal experience in Bradford from what I discerned.

I used to follow Pete North and had semi regular twitter conversations, challenging him sometimes, asking for information on his point of view, getting links to evidence backing up his points. He is interesting, clever, often polite patient and reasonable and every so often just a little bit mad. His eruptions, especially at some of the Tory govt stupidity have been often entertaining.

Unfortunately I am now blocked. He lost it with Allie Rennison, who is the Head of Europe and Trade Policy at the IoD. Rennison is someone else I follow. She's no Sam Lowe or David Henig, but she clearly knows her stuff. Sometimes she gets things wrong, sometimes she has a different opinion to other experts but she is decent and has been working hard to try and assist the UK (she's actually american, had a natural leaning for brexit but ended up on balance coming down on the side of Remain) to find a way through the future relationship with EU/UK red lines minefield. Anyway, something she said, which probably wasn't right, attracted north's ire and he attacked her in some very sustained, personal, vile rants. He used the C word and was extremely sexist and misogynistic. Like many others I had a go back at North, assuming if he was dishing it out he'd be able to take it. I was wrong. It's a shame as I learnt a lot from following him.

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Grevis Posted on 11/10/2018 19:41

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Lots of desperate excuses there, but promoting a known racist, like you're doing, is shameful.
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 20:00

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
An impressive number of logical fallacies in just one sentence there.

Why don't you just read what he said, which has no racism in it anywhere, and address the key issues about the direction he thinks thinks the people you put in charge at the time of brexit and influencing the type of brexit we are getting, are likely to take this country? Does he not make some good arguments? If not why is he wrong? If he does make good arguments are you happy with this direction or do you think it is a danger we should be countering?

The only brexiter (I think) who has slightly engaged with me is Zorro, who rather than address the direction we are going to go in, which is surely more important, is to ask about the direction of the EU instead. I'm not saying that's not a valid question, but it's a distraction from the more important question we need to decide on first.

I honestly don't know what brexiters want, but I'd like to find out, if you'd be kind enough to help enlighten me, my friend?

You keep complaining that Remainers haven't got behind brexit and to make a success of it we need to all pull in the same direction.

For that, I need to know what direction that is. Can you tell me?

Shouldn't be hard, you all knew what you were voting for you tell me.
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Grevis Posted on 11/10/2018 20:17

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
I have read it, as I clearly indicated in the first post I made in this thread, a post in which I also made clear North's rant was nothing of substance - more petty attacks from him which seems to be his forte. It would appear you didn't really understand this despite actually quoting part of said post.

So you just keep promoting your racists who say nothing of worth.
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superstu Posted on 11/10/2018 20:37

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"I think brexiters forget just how big an influence we had in the EU and just how respected we used to be."

What do you have in mind when you say that Lefty? I think I remember reading we're the country that's most often on the losing side of Council votes? TBF I think it was still only 1/10th of the time as they usually try to get unanimous decisions or for countries to abstain.
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superstu Posted on 11/10/2018 20:41

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
And we've got all them UKIP MEPs who never even show up so I didn't think we have much influence in the Parliament?
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 20:52

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Good grief, that's not 'promoting' a racist.

It is nice to see a brexiter condemning racism mind you, as a group you kept pretty quiet on it during the referendum debate unfortunately, as you applauded the racists in front of the posters, spreading the racist lies, facilitating the rise in racist attacks and abuse.

As for your original answer, you say it's an 'attack on Boris and JRM and tells us nothing about them we don't already know.'

Hmm so North is telling us things you already KNOW, which logically means you agree he is correct, which logically also means, since his opinion 'has nothing of substance' in it, that neither does yours. Which we knew from your vague pretend to be clever by being dismissively haughty posts are designed to try to hide, but don't.

You remind me of another poster on here.
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Grevis Posted on 11/10/2018 21:02

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
What a pathetic and desperate strawman argument. I'm not a brexiter at all. You seem to have assumed I am for criticising you and showing you up as a hypocrite for giving "airtime" to this vile racist simply because he happens to have view on two people you share.

How scummy does one have to be to completely abandon their morals and present racists and their opinions as legitimate discourse.

You've let yourself down here Lefty and shown your true colours.
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 21:13

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
'What do you have in mind when you say that Lefty?'

Superstu, in terms of votes

'Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.'

However, I wasn't really thinking about that.

I was thinking more about EU Foreign Policy for instance.Where Germany was the most significant country when it comes to economic policy and clout, we used to be the country that had the most clout and influence in most other Foreign policy areas. We were the country the rest of the EU listened to when we spoke and our diplomats and civil servants were the most respected.

In science, which is a huge part of the EU forward thinking and future planning and drivers of the economy, making it the leading scientific community in the world now, ahead of the USA and China, the UK was the leading country within it and got the most bang for our buck.

I realise that a lot of people are afraid of a european army, quite why I don't know, but if there were an development of that then it would be us and France leading this and probably us more than France.

I was thinking of things like the Single Market, which was mainly a British initiative and project.

I was thinking of things like the Euro. Thanks to our refusal, it didn't just keep us out of it, it gave support and clout to others who don't want to join.

We led the way under Blair, Brown and Prescott on some environmental protection measures.

On the CAP it was our belligerence that obtained our rebate and has gradually helped to move reform on it.

And of course on financial services and it's regulation we dominate.
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 21:18

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Grevis,

If you are not a brexiter then I apologise for the assumption.

However you are the one committing the straw man logical fallacy.

Nothing in Norths thread is racist and I'm not racist, yet instead of attacking North's actual argument you dismiss it because you believe him to be racist and then extend that to attack me by pretending I am therefore racist too.[V]

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Grevis Posted on 11/10/2018 21:34

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
You are legitimising a racist. Puzzling why anyone who is aware of this, which you undoubtedly are, would do this if not because they're a morally bankrupt hypocrite.

That his thread doesn't contain racism, doesn't negate the fact he still is. Would you have posted the rantings of Nick Griffin or Tommy Robinson if they cared to spit poison at Boris and JRM?
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superstu Posted on 11/10/2018 22:35

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999"

How does that compare to other countries though? I agree the ratio looks good at first glance but if it's the worst ratio in the EU then something must be up?

"we used to be the country that had the most clout and influence in most other Foreign policy areas. We were the country the rest of the EU listened to when we spoke and our diplomats and civil servants were the most respected."

Could you expand on that? Like when is a time that this happened? To me it seems like saying we had so much influence and respect in foreign policy and in financial services seems like it would contradict what a lot of remainers have said since before the referendum about the UK having nobody who knows how to negotiate trade deals?

I don't think the point about CAP or the Euros great. Aren't we the country that always blocks reform of CAP and keeps it as a way to gift money to people that are already wealthy? Generally is it a good thing to be in a club if you're always the one to slow it down and try to push against it fulfilling it's stated aim? I think one thing I never understand in remainers is if you see the EU as such a great project, why do you want the UK to always be in it trying to veto integration constantly?
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superstu Posted on 11/10/2018 22:38

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"I realise that a lot of people are afraid of a european army, quite why I don't know, but if there were an development of that then it would be us and France leading this and probably us more than France."

Gotta say as well, this is grasping at straws or even a little disingenuous IMO. Any other time you'd insist there's no chance whatsoever of an EU army being brought in to existence.
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 22:48
Edited On: 11/10/2018 22:49
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
No, grevis, i wouldn’t.

But North’s racism is specific against Muslims and islam as far as I can tell and it stems from some experiences in Bradford. He may we’ll have legitimate complaints but I dislike the way he applies the actions of a few to a whole ethnic minority.

However this has nothing to do with his reasons for wanting to leave the EU. He doesn’t want to leave the single market. In fact he condemned the racism and lies told by Farage and co regarding turkey and Eastern European’s if if recall correctly.

What do you just stick to the issue about the hi jack of brexit by the far right economic groups for whom it is all about money and exploitation rather than democracy and sovereignty?

I can only conclude you approve of this direction. Why don’t you have the courage to just say so?
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Lefty Posted on 11/10/2018 23:32

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Stu

The European army just isn’t an issue for me. Maybe it should be but I just don’t see it as anything aggressive. The EU has at its heart, peace.

If it somehow weakened NATO then I’d be concerned. But actually I think with the Americans seemingly withdrawing the degree of commitment to its traditional allies it might require Europe to step up a bit.

Are you disagreeing that as the country with the largest most experienced military in the EU that we wouldn’t be the nation most looked to?
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BandH Posted on 12/10/2018 02:00

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
'A very successful trading bloc.'

Now if this were the case and the EU was a very successful trading bloc only, the vote to leave would never have happened.

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superstu Posted on 12/10/2018 06:30

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"Are you disagreeing that as the country with the largest most experienced military in the EU that we wouldn’t be the nation most looked to?"

No I'm disagreeing that the UK has been so influential and so respected. I asked you what you meant about us being so influential and respected and part of your answer is well we would be if there was ever an EU army, but it's a hypothetical, and usually one the remainers insist is never gonna happen.

What about the foreign policy stuff? When did we influence everyone then? I feel like on foreign policy we're usually distrusted within the EU cause they see us as just America's foreign policy representative.
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UndercoverElephant Posted on 12/10/2018 09:48

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Read the thread linked in the OP. Strikes me as just another in a long list of Brexiters who, now that everything's hitting the fan have nothing to say other than "no, no, it would have been great but you're doing it wrong!"

How else can they still pretend they were right?
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laughing Posted on 12/10/2018 09:52
Edited On: 12/10/2018 09:54
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Lefty,

I will answer your question around what do brexiters want. I voted brexit and I don't care about immigration, beyond reasonable controls on the total population of the UK.

I voted to get out of the EU because it is a huge money pit. It costs us a fortune. Is it worth it? I don't know, I am not an economist, but I know I don't want my taxes to go to keeping Junker in alcohol.

On the subject of the linked article, I found it amusing, particularly the last line about a bank heist. However, I didn't think there was much substance, just bitter opinion.
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Alan_Breck Posted on 12/10/2018 09:55

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Brexit, totally unknown waters in which to sail. There have been many more lies, falsehoods and half truths told after the referendum than we had during the campaign and that is going some.

Just get on with it and we'll deal with the consequences after we leave, deal or no deal.

#UTB
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bear66 Posted on 12/10/2018 10:05

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"I voted to get out of the EU because it is a huge money pit. It costs us a fortune."

It doesn't. Less than 0.5% GDP at the moment and 0.2% of GDP since we joined. We'll lose far more than that in GDP every year being out of the EU. 16 years of contribution in the next 5 years if we get a 'good deal'.
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number9point5 Posted on 12/10/2018 10:14

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
opened post
Saw it was from Lefty
Left above comment
Closed post
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erimus74 Posted on 12/10/2018 10:26
Edited On: 12/10/2018 10:30
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
I returned home last week from Alicante airport after a weeks holiday in Spain, our plane was delayed for an hour, then once boarded we had to sit on the plane tarmac for another 40 minutes due to the heavy, busy traffic
I really believe this was all down to Brexit, all this scare mongering & with the date being so close, March 29th, it hasnt dne anyone any good, if Brexit hadn't have been brought to the table then our flight wouldn't have been delayed & I would ahve been in bed at half 1 not half 3

I also think the traffic lights on Acklam Road / Twimdon Avenue stay on red longer now since the vote & I'm a leaver, which makes me think, did I cause this ?
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Stigmata Posted on 12/10/2018 10:47
Edited On: 12/10/2018 10:49
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
"if we get a 'good deal'."

I suppose that means if the Government keeps on paying the subs and doesn't really implement the Referendum result.
For me "a good deal" is really leaving the Brussels EU and dealing with them if we choose in future to do so on a one off basis.
"A good deal" would also mean not being restricted by EU rules and laws, and being able to trade with anyone we wished to on our own terms.

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bear66 Posted on 12/10/2018 10:53

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
A good deal is any deal. It refelects the affect of the economy and nothing to do with contributions.

The extra £20 billion that manufacturers will pay in customs checks swamps all costs alone and that isn't included in GDP as it will just transmit to extra consumer costs. The civil servant that let people know this has had death threats.

Telling the truth about Brexit is a dangerous thing.

Link: Link
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laughing Posted on 12/10/2018 11:10

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Bear, you don't think 9 billion is a lot, OK.

What it is as a % of GDP is neither here nor there. The trade benefits are neither here nor there.

What is that 9 Billion being spent on? I have no idea, but for example an MEP costs on average 1.79 million per year, an MP 650 thousand. Is that value for money? What are they doing for this cash?

The argument that we need to stay in so we can keep the trade deals is like a bodega in Miami paying protection money to stay in business. The EU are a bunch of thieves
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bear66 Posted on 12/10/2018 11:14

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
It's peanuts compared with the benefits. The customs costs alone will far exceed it. Then there's another £10 billion to give us gallileo GPS security. Working together with neighbours makes sense; the best argument for Scotland remaining in the Union. Cheddar chhese from Ireland is being stockpiled at the moment to avoid the 47% WTO duty should the worst happen.

In this region, Nissan wouldn't be here if we hadn't been in the EU. A lot is being made about companies leaving but the bigger problem will be companies not coming here to invest in the future.
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Borocelt Posted on 12/10/2018 11:31

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
The sensible compromise was always joining the EEA / EFTA and enforcing the immigration laws compatible with the single market.

No issues with the border in Ireland, less damaging to the economy, away from political union, can allow other arrangements with other countries (the Swiss example).

My personal view is that while this isn't as good as being a part of the EU, I would begrudgingly accept this result. It was narrow, and there should be compromise.

The version being pushed is extreme, and there is no mandate for it. While the far right insist on pushing an extreme, it just hardens the opposition. Which is why there is such a huge push for a final vote, which remain would likely win.
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laughing Posted on 12/10/2018 11:38

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
I think you miss my last point Bear. I don't disagree with anything you have said, necessarily. I am arguing we are being bullied by an organisation into paying our "dues". The benefits are incidental and we could create external trade agreements on equal terms (not necessarily within the current EU members, obviously), given the time, expertise and appetite to do so.
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streetwise Posted on 12/10/2018 12:09
Edited On: 12/10/2018 12:10
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
The mandate was to leave the EU rather than not to leave the EU.
There was no degree of leaving in the question, it was just leaving , so to say there was no mandate for leaving the EU altogether is not true. Thus to suggest that anyone who wanted to leave is "far right" is untrue. 17 million people voted to leave, so we are leaving.

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bear66 Posted on 12/10/2018 12:12

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
There will never be an economic case for Brexit.

There is no bullying for our dues by the EU. They are based on a budget agreed by all 28 (soon to be 27) countries. It's clear from the last 18 months that we have extremely poor political and civil service negotiators to affect the outcome of the budget. We still don't have to vote for it.
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Ziggy Posted on 12/10/2018 14:46

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 

"There was no degree of leaving in the question, it was just leaving"

Well, not quite.


here some original Brexiter statements ...
- "£350 million for the NHS"
- "Turkey will be joining the EU"
- "It'll hurt the EU more than it will hurt the UK"
- "Immigration will go down"
- "Easiest deal in history"
- "They'll beg for mercy when we threaten to stop buying BMWs and Prosecco"
And now ...
- "We never promised £350 million for the NHS. The fact that the two statements were side by side on a big red bus, and included the qualifier 'instead' does not mean that they are any way related. Fake news!"
- "We'll probably be okay in 50 years"
- "We'll make scavenging from recycling centres legal"
- "Stockpile food and medicines!"
- "It's not the end of the world"
- "We'll survive"
- "It's all the Remoaners' fault"
- "It's all the EU's fault."
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Lefty Posted on 12/10/2018 16:40
Edited On: 12/10/2018 16:43
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
superstu

"the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999"

How does that compare to other countries though?'

Why is that relevant? Aww, is the poor little UK getting picked on? Or does it mean that the UK can in fact a bit of a selfish brat that wants exceptionalism more often than the others? Well, given our record and our behaviour in the last two years the latter looks more likely to me. Surely all that matters is our interests.

Also, it's not necessarily the number of times we didn't get our way. What if they were all minor things we lost the vote on? But what if they were major? 56 might be highly significant.

So, do you know what the votes were on that we lost? I don't. I'm not bothered. In a democracy I accept that some votes will not go your way*. I'm surprised it's so few actually. I might be bothered if the issue was big enough of course. However it has been cracking on for three years that Remainers have been asking Leavers for examples of laws they can't live with and to date none of you have managed to come up with any. And the onus is on you. We're not going to spend our time, you're the ones unhappy, supposedly.

You say yourself that on the face of it the numbers look good. So the logical position is to dig into it yourself, look at the votes and our position - remember UK can be wrong sometimes - and decide whether this really is an issue. If you don't then you should accept there isn't anything to get worked up about, after all anything big would have surely caused a storm, rather than decide there is an issue and it's up to others to show otherwise.


*I know what you are going to say, lol
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BarnesBoroFC Posted on 12/10/2018 16:50
Edited On: 12/10/2018 17:08
Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Second thoughts I'm not getting involved in yet another thread on this topic.
*Deleted my comment*
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Lefty Posted on 12/10/2018 16:58

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Supestu

With regard to the respect given on Foreign policy, can I suggest you listen to some of the early cakewatch podcasts as the two podcasters are a former EU negotiator and a current EU civil servant speaking in a private capacity. They do give examples and are worth listening to anyway for more details on how the EU actually works.

I'm guessing episode 3. Probably Ep 8 on Federalism too.

The epsiode with MEP Alyn Smith (14) is really good.

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Lefty Posted on 12/10/2018 17:01

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Superstu

Regarding the point about the CAP and Euro's not being great, why aren't they?

These are big issues for the UK. Did the EU impose something on us that we really didn't like? No, they negotiated a compromise. It's fair enough, isn't it?

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Lefty Posted on 12/10/2018 17:26

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Superstu

'Could you expand on that? Like when is a time that this happened? To me it seems like saying we had so much influence and respect in foreign policy and in financial services seems like it would contradict what a lot of remainers have said since before the referendum about the UK having nobody who knows how to negotiate trade deals? '

Taking your second point first, I don't think you have understood what remainers were saying about the UK negotiators. As I understand it the EU has the greatest of respect for the UK civil servants, diplomats and negotiators. They believe them to be of the highest calibre.

The issue is with the numbers they have for the extreme workload they would need to get through.

At the start of negotiations I think we had about 25 experienced trade negotiators. The EU had 500.

The Trade deal with Canada was fairly limited in scope and sectors that needed to be covered, yet still took from late 2008 to mid 2016 to complete, followed by the ratification process. Canada has far more experienced negotiators than us, because of NAFTA.

In leaving the EU we have something like 760 deals to renegotiate and replicate in a two year period. It isn't competence we were questioning it was capacity and time.

Plus, no matter how good you are, you can only play the hand you are dealt. The EU have a full house, we have a pair of 5's, the candlestick, community chest and Mr Bun the Baker.

Finally, just to cap it off, our negotiators were hamstrung because for 18 months they haven't even known what end result we wanted them to get us to.

By now, surely most Leave voters realise we didn't hold all the cards, that the deal will be the easiest in history and the German car manufacturers and Italian Prosecco producers are riding to the rescue.

As for you first point, the EU have tried to impose financial regulations but we wouldn't allow it and the City of London held the clout.

Due to brexit, about 5,000 city jobs are moving to Franfurt, Paris, Dublin and New York.
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superstu Posted on 12/10/2018 18:33

Interesting brexit view from a leading brexit advocate

 
Evening lefty, you seem in fine fettle! I'm just on the bus home atm but I'll try and do proper answers when i get in. After glance it looks like there's plenty to chew over there! [:D]

Thanks for the podcast recommendation, always appreciate that kind of thing. In turn I was reading a lecture on Brexit by Ivan Rogers this afternoon (procrastinating) you may enjoy.

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