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christiano29 Posted on 16/05/2018 20:53
Downing stats for the season
 
 
Highest number of key passes in the squad, second highest number of assists ( 7 behind traore with 10), pass completion rate is highest of any of the attacking midfielders / strikers at 83.2 %.




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big-eggo Posted on 16/05/2018 20:58

Downing stats for the season

 
you cannot go bandying facts around the place like that OP. The Downing out brigade will be along presently to string you up for a beating.
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AlBoro1984 Posted on 16/05/2018 21:11

Downing stats for the season

 
Surprised he isn’t in the World Cup squad.
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foomanboro Posted on 16/05/2018 21:15
Edited On: 16/05/2018 21:16
Downing stats for the season

 
2nd highest assists when he is the only other regular starting attacking midfielder/winger in the team is not that impressive.

It’s equally valid to say he had the lowest number of assists and goals for an regularly playing attacking midfielder.

Even Braithwaite scores more in the handful of games he played for us.

His return is not good whatever way you spin it when he’s meant to spearhead our attacking creative play. Which was our biggest weakness all season.
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bear66 Posted on 16/05/2018 21:17

Downing stats for the season

 
"Even Braithwaite scores more in the handful of games he played for us."

The rest of his game was totally ineffective. If he's a lone striker, fine, otherwise the right decision to let him go.

Downing has had as good a season since his return.
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foomanboro Posted on 16/05/2018 21:21

Downing stats for the season

 
He has been a 6 out of 10 most of the season with the odd 7. Nothing more.
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christiano29 Posted on 16/05/2018 22:13

Downing stats for the season

 
Traore has given the ball away a lot more than Downing in achieving his 10 assists. If Downing was not bothered about giving the ball away cheaply he could have had a greater number of assists.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 16/05/2018 22:15

Downing stats for the season

 
[:D]
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sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 16/05/2018 22:25

Downing stats for the season

 
so basically he's done better than howson? [:D]
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JLinardi Posted on 16/05/2018 22:40

Downing stats for the season

 
I dont mind downing I just dont think he offers enough threat to occupy any of the positions behind the striker. Hed be perfect to sit deeper but then he hasnt got the aggression to occupy a cm spot.
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OneEye Posted on 16/05/2018 22:51

Downing stats for the season

 

Pass completion rate :-)

It's the worst and most misleading stat in football.

You can pass the ball 10 yards sideways and find your target 10 times out of 10 and therefore get a pass completion rate of 100%. But you're still garbage.

Or you can pass the ball forward 40-50 yards, find the attacker twice (out of 10 tries) who goes on to score - ala Kevin de Bruyne - and get a pass completion rate of 20%. Who is the better passer?

See you failed to give the stats on how many times Downing gave the ball away, which against Villa last night was probably more than anyone in the division over 20+ games lol.

He is garbage, a dreadful player at this level. But I can live with that. What very few fail to recognise is that he's destroying the club because Gibson has given him the freedom of the club. He has to be picked no matter who is in charge. If he isn't picked he causes uproar and splits the dressing room.

He needs to go.
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Richyboro Posted on 16/05/2018 23:06

Downing stats for the season

 
Forshaw's stats were impressive last season also, look where he has ended up. There are lies, damn lies and .................
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truck Posted on 16/05/2018 23:26

Downing stats for the season

 
whats his stats for overhit corners? scuffed or pulled wide shots?
his best assets are he works hard and a lot of the time retains possession, sadly this often is because he goes sideways or backwards
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christiano29 Posted on 17/05/2018 09:29

Downing stats for the season

 
If Downing just passed backwards, then he wouldn't have recorded the highest number of key passes in the squad, throughout the season. Key passes are defined as passes to a team mate that result in them having a shot at goal.


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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 09:43

Downing stats for the season

 
That doesn’t define how good the pass was though. That means I could receive an easy pass from downing on the halfway line then have a ridiculous shot from a unrealistic distance angle. That would still add to downing stats.

Also as our alleged best creative midfielder he should have the highest amount of key passes. However he still didn’t do enough of them as we didn’t score nearly as many goals as our main rivals.
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Exiled_in_Herford Posted on 17/05/2018 09:55

Downing stats for the season

 
Come on fooman, we don't shoot when we're inside the box, there's no way we're shooting from the half way line [:D]
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zaphod Posted on 17/05/2018 09:58

Downing stats for the season

 
7 assists in 40 odd games? So he assists a goal in 1 game in 6. That's hardly stellar.
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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 10:01

Downing stats for the season

 
Basically the argument for keeping the highest player at the club (and probably the league) is that he is the 2nd best midfielder we have, of a bad bunch.
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Exiled_in_Herford Posted on 17/05/2018 10:16

Downing stats for the season

 
I'd be disappointed if he was a starter next season and I'm a fan of his. Same can be said of Friend, Clayton, Leadbitter and Gestede.
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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 10:18

Downing stats for the season

 
If we bring in similar quality players as we did last season, they should all stay instead.
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coluka Posted on 17/05/2018 10:20

Downing stats for the season

 
Exactly so exiled (although I disagree re Clayton as the squad stands)
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atypical_boro Posted on 17/05/2018 11:25

Downing stats for the season

 
He has a year left, next year he will probably be a squad player who won't start much. I'm happy with that.[^]
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brattleboro Posted on 17/05/2018 12:05

Downing stats for the season

 
hes a local lad dont ya know[:D]
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redwurzel Posted on 17/05/2018 12:21

Downing stats for the season

 
Not enough crosses or passes into oppositions box for me. To his defence he is still a decent dead ball taker and his passing is accurate. I would like to see him take risks more by feeding balls forward quicker at times. He also needs people around him to make runs more often to create options for him.
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laughing Posted on 17/05/2018 12:28

Downing stats for the season

 
OneEye
"What very few fail to recognise is that he's destroying the club because Gibson has given him the freedom of the club. He has to be picked no matter who is in charge. If he isn't picked he causes uproar and splits the dressing room."

You just made that up didn't, go on admit it?

If Downing had that level of influence how was Monk able to stick him on the transfer list and train with the kids? How? How?
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buttermyarse Posted on 17/05/2018 12:29

Downing stats for the season

 
Overrated. Still. [8D]
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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 12:41

Downing stats for the season

 
“If Downing had that level of influence how was Monk able to stick him on the transfer list and train with the kids? How? How?”

He didn’t, he got sacked soon afterwards.
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Andy_The_Touch Posted on 17/05/2018 13:10

Downing stats for the season

 
This is why Stats like this shouldn't be given to fans.

People can take them so far out of context its untrue. You need all the data from these stats to give them any relevance. Key passes for example you need to know how many were from open play or from dead balls?

If 9 out of 10 are from dead balls then other than free kicks and corners he is offering nothing to team in open play so the stats are worthless. (I'm not saying that is the case here but we don't know form the stats given)
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atypical_boro Posted on 17/05/2018 13:13
Edited On: 17/05/2018 13:18
Downing stats for the season

 
Agree Andy[^]

The media have tried to dumb the game down so far to the point that its now supposedly just a case of looking at a few stats and basing a stonewall opinion on them.

The thing is, there are enough stats produced nowadays to make a case for or against virtually any player.
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Doppelganger Posted on 17/05/2018 13:14

Downing stats for the season

 
"Surprised he isn’t in the World Cup squad."

[smi]
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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 13:17

Downing stats for the season

 
Looking at stats in detail. Has Downing got any assists from dead balls this season?

If not, Downing 7 assists from open play. Traore 5 each from open play and corners.
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brain_in_a_jar Posted on 17/05/2018 13:51

Downing stats for the season

 
Think downing can't handle the slog of the championship to be honest. Both seasons in this league he's started well, but faded drastically as the season has gone on. I'm more than happy for him to be in the squad but I don't think he's able to play saturday tuesday saturday tuesday anymore.

Still think he has a lot to offer us but not week in week out, he needs managing better.

Regarding deadballs I can think of ayala's away at preston think that was a downing free kick.

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jamtheman80 Posted on 17/05/2018 13:58
Edited On: 17/05/2018 14:34
Downing stats for the season

 
What is the source of these stats? How is a 'key pass' defined?

As for his often cited percentage of completed passes, I share Ruud Gullits contempt of this approach “You hear people going ‘he ran 12km’ or ‘he made 32 passes in the game’,“Oh yeah? And how did he make them? Was he marked, was he successful, was it an important moment?"

Reading the alternative reality put forward by pro 'Stewie' cultists on here and the clubs propaganda organ, The Gazette, is like watching a weather forecaster guaranteeing a warm dry sunny day when all you can see outside is lashing rain under a blanket of thick grey cloud.

They think by repeatedly asserting he had a good match, best player on the pitch that eventually, Like Invasion of The Body snatchers, we will all succumb but thankfully they are fooling nobody but themselves. Even the '6/10' used by his critics has probably flattered him as it suggests he has been above average in the attacking midfield role hes meant to play in but he hasnt for many matches.
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DowningAlbion Posted on 17/05/2018 14:05
Edited On: 17/05/2018 14:09
Downing stats for the season

 
Incorrect JTM80. However a Key Pass is defined, as it is measured the same for all players then the player with the most was the best within that category

And the producers of such stats i.e sports analytics organisations are experts and refine the measures to ensure they are as meaningful as they can be. The world is currently being run on the results of analytics from the cloud on every conceivable measure, because it works
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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 14:14

Downing stats for the season

 
I do a lot of big data analytics in my industry and I can tell you now modelling and quantifying numbers on subjective matters like “key passes” is deeply flawed and inaccurate from a statistical point of view. A lot of data generated is just noise and can lead to some very wrong conclusions
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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 14:27

Downing stats for the season

 
So is the data incorrect or the just misinterpreted?
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atypical_boro Posted on 17/05/2018 14:31
Edited On: 17/05/2018 14:32
Downing stats for the season

 
Isn't that the point bear? There is no 'correct' data for a stat like 'key passes', because the word 'key' already introduces a high level of subjectivity in the first place.

Stats about something subjective are meaningless. Like 'chances created', for example - who decides what is and isn't a chance? Some 21 year old journalism graduate doing an internship at Sky Sports? What qualifies that?
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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 14:34

Downing stats for the season

 
Unless there is a definition for a 'key pass' (distance, forward, trapped by player, distance from goal (loger requires key outside the PA, shorter into the PA). If there is a definition then you can quibble the definition but not the data.
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jamtheman80 Posted on 17/05/2018 14:36

Downing stats for the season

 
If the definition is flawed you can definitely disagree with the data based on it.
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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 14:36

Downing stats for the season

 
Could be both. The problem is there is no hard and fast rule for the analyst as to what constitutes a “key pass”. For example does it take into account the quality of the pass made (distance, pace, height, was it difficult to control etc)?

What one analyst will define as a key pass is different to what someone else would say. So there would be a fundamental flaw in the data capture itself.

But yeah that’s why stats (especially the subjective ones) get misused all the time.
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jamtheman80 Posted on 17/05/2018 14:38

Downing stats for the season

 
'However a Key Pass is defined, as it is measured the same for all players then the player with the most was the best within that category

And the producers of such stats i.e sports analytics organisations are experts and refine the measures to ensure they are as meaningful as they can be. The world is currently being run on the results of analytics from the cloud on every conceivable measure, because it works'

I have yet to see a source or a definition of what a key pass is.

Dont see much that is working based on 'analytics' quite the opposite.
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DowningAlbion Posted on 17/05/2018 14:38
Edited On: 17/05/2018 14:40
Downing stats for the season

 
OK, I'll let the highly regarded experts at OPTA know we have a load of amateur data-scientists who know better [:D]

Link: KEYPASS
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atypical_boro Posted on 17/05/2018 14:44

Downing stats for the season

 
"If there is a definition then you can quibble the definition but not the data."

That's true, but we're rarely given the definitions are we? And are we sure those definitions also don't contain anything subjective?

Downing, I've worked in this industry myself, and I know how it works. The people actually collecting the data are trainees/graduates, they're not highly skilled and qualified football analysts with years of experience of playing at the top level, they're people like you and me who can demonstrate a level of knowledge of the sport but are willing to work for a low salary at unsociable hours.
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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 14:45

Downing stats for the season

 
So no different to comparing goals. One player may score 20 goals, all deflections off his back from another player. Another may score 20 goals, all 45 yd screamers (and hit the 20 shots off the back of his mate as well - so 20 assists).
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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 14:47

Downing stats for the season

 
So as I suspected the current key passes metric doesn't take into account quality of the pass.
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DowningAlbion Posted on 17/05/2018 14:52

Downing stats for the season

 
The reality is the Key Pass metric used by OPTA and other Sports Analytics organisations is a good enough indicator of performance to be frequently used in mainstream football coverage for the last 10 years

If it was a meaningless measure, it would never have gained such acceptance
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atypical_boro Posted on 17/05/2018 14:56

Downing stats for the season

 
"The reality is the Key Pass metric used by OPTA and other Sports Analytics organisations is a good enough indicator of performance to be frequently used in mainstream football coverage for the last 10 years.

If it was a meaningless measure, it would never have gained such acceptance."

I totally agree with this, its a (very loose) *indicator*, not something any genuinely strong opinions should really be formed from.

Nowadays, you see people arguing about certain players on social media throwing all sorts of stats around, when more often than not I reckon the debating parties have never watched him play!
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DowningAlbion Posted on 17/05/2018 15:00
Edited On: 17/05/2018 15:52
Downing stats for the season

 
I'm an experienced Business Intelligence and Analytics consultant currently finishing off an academic research project within a gaming analytics domain...

Machine Learning based analytics are a massive part of the current technological landscape because they work. Advertising, recommendation systems, medical advances, robotics and automation and AI in general are all relying on the fact that they work (when used correctly). All the voice recognition software in Alexa and SIRI is machine learning based

Maybe OPTA type stats are still semi-manually entered by 'trainees' but it won't be long before they are automatically captured by cameras, if they are not already
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atypical_boro Posted on 17/05/2018 15:17

Downing stats for the season

 
Again, I've no doubt that's the case Downing. There could still be a strong element of subjectivity though, parameters will be set and those themselves may consist of a degree of subjectivity.

My criticism is that there seems to be an over-dependency on these stats, I'm not saying they're entirely useless.
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jam69 Posted on 17/05/2018 15:23

Downing stats for the season

 
hrs the king of the 5 yard pass sidewards/backwards so not surprising
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skiprat Posted on 17/05/2018 15:35

Downing stats for the season

 
The stat that we've finished 5th in the league with him playing a vital part in the midfield is the most telling.

None of them are good enough at the moment barring Traore, they don't score, barely set up goals and don't offer anything like the pace and purpose needed for a league winning side.

Compare Downing (or anyone of our midfielder's) contributions this season to the midfield at Wolves and you can see why we get it so wrong.

2 full seasons now of having a midfield that doesn't create goals is horrendous.
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Dribble Posted on 17/05/2018 15:40

Downing stats for the season

 
What are his stats for headers, contested headers, 50/50 tackles, mins /goal ,tackles missed ,shots off target
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foomanboro Posted on 17/05/2018 15:45
Edited On: 17/05/2018 15:51
Downing stats for the season

 
"The reality is the Key Pass metric used by OPTA and other Sports Analytics organisations is a good enough indicator of performance to be frequently used in mainstream football coverage for the last 10 years.

If it was a meaningless measure, it would never have gained such acceptance."

Not true. Big corporations, governments and media exactly use these kinds of metrics as a simplistic way to to construct, spin and communicate to layman's whatever fits their agenda. Most people being laymans.

In this case OP has cherry picked a very ropey statistical measure to convince others that Downing has been effective this season.

Unfortunately he wasn't counting on people questioning that data and might actually know what they are talking about.
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Dribble Posted on 17/05/2018 15:50

Downing stats for the season

 
By mainstream you mean Sky, they have a product to sell and will spout any old XXXXXXe to do it.Stats never scored a goal.
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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 15:51

Downing stats for the season

 
He appears to have scored more goals from open play that Traore, which surprised me. (Although Traore has more set peice goals and a better goals / minute stat.
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DowningAlbion Posted on 17/05/2018 15:55

Downing stats for the season

 
"Most people being laymans... he wasn't counting on people questioning that data and might actually know what they are talking about" [:D]

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bear66 Posted on 17/05/2018 15:57

Downing stats for the season

 
"Stats never scored a goal."

Stats are a basis for interpreting the past and I guess the £15m we paid for Assombalonga was more than partly based on stats.
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