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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 06:29
Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?
 
 
"Mike Dean should be investigated"

"Cost us promotion"

"Should never ref again"

You'd think they'd have gotten over Dale Stephens by now.

#growup
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 16/05/2018 06:41

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
You will never go up a level if you agree with Deans decision. He gave it I accept it, but it should be investigated.

Even FIFA realise our referees are very very poor.
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CardiffDaffs Posted on 16/05/2018 06:53

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Moaning about the referee is all part and parcel of being a football fan. Plenty of other things to focus on where it all went wrong though but "defence of the referee" shocker from the OP is predictable.
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gravy173 Posted on 16/05/2018 07:01

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
It was a blatantly poor decision which even Steve Bruce agrees with but didn't affect the tie given it happened in the 88th minute.
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Nero Posted on 16/05/2018 07:16

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Should have been a sending off but doubtful it would have made any difference. Villa still had a sub to make would have brought on another Keeper and continued to defend well.
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RC92 Posted on 16/05/2018 07:19

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
It by no means cost us promotion, but it was an awful decision and should have ruled him out against Fulham.

This is a guy who got demoted last season for making consistently poor 'big' decisions, then in his demoted game in the Championship, gave a penalty for a handball clearly outside the box.

Said it before the play-offs, get the best Championship referees across the season to manage these games and not the hand-me-downs from the Premier League who aren't good enough.
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Borocelt Posted on 16/05/2018 07:20

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
It’s one of the stupidest decisions I have seen, but I don’t know how much it affects the overall result if he is sent off.

It would, at least, have felt like a shred of justice, because essentially that was a victory for cheating.
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 07:27

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
The notion that a goalkeeper handling outside the box is an automatic red card is hugely popular and entirely wrong.
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RC92 Posted on 16/05/2018 07:34

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Law 12-

Sending-Off Offences:

- denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)

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Ticker_Tape Posted on 16/05/2018 07:35

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
So the goalkeeper can now deny a goal scoring opportunity by handling the ball outside of the penalty area.

Come on Referee give me you definition of why it should not have been a given just so I can pass this on.
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 07:39

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I think it's fairly self-explanatory, but just for the sake of clarity, he judged that it wasn't an obvious goalscoring opportunity. You can argue it either way, another ref might have judged the opposite, my view given the strength of the lob and the position of Terry is he was right.

It's the nonsense about "worst decision EVAH" that's as laughable as it was in the Stephens case.
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skiprat Posted on 16/05/2018 07:46

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I would say that at a lob over a goalie with an open goal is as clear a goal scoring opportunity as you’re going to get. If the last defender gets sent off they don’t stay on because the keeper may have saved it in the next phase.

I wouldn’t say we deserved to win the game but it is a huge decision. They would have been rocking and the free kick situation would have been completely different.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 16/05/2018 07:49

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
In your opinion it wouldnt have went in EVAH, sheer conjecture.

However it was a goal scoring opportunity check

Goal ward bound check

Stopped from heading to the goal by a goalkeeper outside of the box. check

And what level might you be?

I know quite a few Ref from league down over, be interesting to get their thoughts.
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 07:59

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I might be Graham Poll, for all you know.

(I'm not, I can generally count...)

More or less agree with that skiprat. As I say, another ref might take another view. It's within the bounds of being arguable either way, and that's fine within the rules. Not like, off the top of my head, Clattenburg v Blackburn, Mason v Leicester, whoever the bloke was v Fulham, all of which were downright inexplicably wrong.
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Linny Posted on 16/05/2018 08:06

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
One of the most clear red cards you will ever see. If a goal bound shot into an empty net isn’t a goal scoring opportunity then you won’t see many red cards under that rule.

Looked to me like it was clearing John Terry easily.

Bizarre decision.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 16/05/2018 08:06

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I didn't think we deserved over two legs either, but highlight the fact that giving a decision like that and that late in the game I would question his integrity.

FIFA seem to have our measure as its a common trait amongst English refs, possible corruption.

Big clubs big decisions, I think someone posted stats to highlight this fact.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 16/05/2018 08:16

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
The Fulham Referee(from Sunderland) held up his hands and said Middlesbrough should have had a penalty, I agreed that theirs was too.

They get things wrong, and it's part of the game. I just felt that it didn't suit Dean that late in the game and he had decided he was for Villa. ( big club)

That's football, but I feel our referees are now noticeable so poor they can't be trusted in major football tournaments.....
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 08:20

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
It does detract a little from your argument when you've just given Fulham a penalty from a clear dive.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 16/05/2018 08:22

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
The only diving was "Diving in " by Leadbitter
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Liamo Posted on 16/05/2018 09:02

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
''He gave it I accept it, but it should be investigated.''

On what basis should it be investigated? It's purely and simply a matter of a refereeing judgement call. If the referee judges that the ball was heading into the net before the keeper handled the ball outside the area then he has to send the keeper off. If he judges that the ball was not destined for the net or if he isn't sure, he can't send him off.

When Traore first struck the ball I was hoping and praying it was headed for the net but obviously those hopes were dashed when the keeper intervened. However none of the replays I saw, showed definitively whether the ball would have ended up in the net if the keeper hadn't handled it, or not.
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flute_loop Posted on 16/05/2018 09:55

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I agree with buddy and liamo. IMO Traore didn't get much on it and Terry would've easily cleared up before the ball got anywhere near the goal.
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Muttley Posted on 16/05/2018 10:00

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
He should've gone. Yes the ref has the "if in the opinion of the referee" so he is "right" but the ball was headed directly towards the goal. You don't not award a penalty for handball because the keeper is standing behind the offender. That said I don't think it made a difference to the result.
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littledick Posted on 16/05/2018 10:05

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Aston Villa's reserve keeper (Bunn ?) must be gutted.

Mike Dean just cost him a Wembley appearance !!
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boromike85 Posted on 16/05/2018 10:18

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Definite red card. As clear a case of denying a goal scoring opportunity as you will ever see.

It probably wouldn't have made a difference to the result but that is irrelevant. He made the decision very quickly. If we wasn't certain he could've asked one of his team if it was a clear goal scoring opportunity. If he had at least taken a couple of seconds and consulted then it could be defended.

He was walking around chatting to Terry and Grealish all game and he gave every single free kick to them when Grealish or Snodgrass through themselves at the floor but let them push Traore and Britt around all game.
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Liamo Posted on 16/05/2018 11:31

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
''If a goal bound shot into an empty net isn’t a goal scoring opportunity then you won’t see many red cards under that rule.''

Well actually, this wasn't a case of a goalscoring opportunity - it was (potentially) the denial of a goal.

Although there are some similarities, these are two separate offences involving different criteria.

For a denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO) offence, it requires that a player would have kept or gained control of the ball and been left with a clear chance to score a goal, were it not for the offence taking place.

The potential denial of a goal however, involves a ball that was already heading into the goal being stopped by means of an illegal handling offence.

The critical factor here is whether the referee thought the ball was definitely heading into the goal before the keeper illegally handled it. I think it probably was, but it's difficult to be certain from the available footage and so calling for the referee to be investigated, banned or sacked - or impugning his integrity, seems way over the top to me.
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Chappy112 Posted on 16/05/2018 11:45

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
"he judged that it wasn't an obvious goalscoring opportunity. You can argue it either way"

You really can't. How much more of an opportunity can you have to score than one where the keeper is out of the equation?

I'm another who thinks the decision made no difference to the game but it was a dreadful decision.

"The critical factor here is whether the referee thought the ball was definitely heading into the goal before the keeper illegally handled it. I think it probably was, but it's difficult to be certain from the available footage and so calling for the referee to be investigated, banned or sacked - or impugning his integrity, seems way over the top to me"

Does this even matter? If someone gets tackled when through on goal they get sent off because they've denied an obvious goal scoring opportunity, they haven't even had a shot and they've still got the keeper to beat! Adama had one defender who wasn't even on the line.

Awful decision.
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 11:48

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
"You don't not award a penalty for handball because the keeper is standing behind the offender."

That's because the question is "did the offender deliberately handle the ball?". There is then a secondary question of whether it denied a goalscoring opportunity, which determines the colour of the card.
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Dribble Posted on 16/05/2018 11:50

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Would Terry have got to it,that's not for the REF to judge,Terry may have slipped over or whatever,clearly goal bound and only a fool or troll would argue otherwise
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 11:55

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I mean it's specifically written in the rules that it is for the ref to judge, but whatever.
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Dribble Posted on 16/05/2018 11:58

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
As it is to award a red card but whatever
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Abel_Tasman Posted on 16/05/2018 12:08

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I realise you are quite enjoying defending Dean in the face of overwhelming opinion but as a referee as well there’s a distinction between judging a clear goal scoring opportunity and having an opinion as to whether Terry would have swept the ball away. The goal was gaping and Adamas lob was directed towards an empty net. In that respect it was a “clear goal scoring opportunity” I absolutely think Dean bottled the right decision. Have no complaints about the result in the end of course.
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Chappy112 Posted on 16/05/2018 12:16

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
^ That's exactly my point, Terry is irrelevant in this situation.

It was a clear goal scoring "opportunity". The phrase isn't "certain goal".
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Buddy Posted on 16/05/2018 12:24

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
"The following must be considered:
• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders"
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Dribble Posted on 16/05/2018 12:28

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
In relation to what? A tackle as last man or a handball
Distance 20yrds
Direction goal bound
Likelihood not applicable
Defenders 1 Terry out of position and wide
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Chappy112 Posted on 16/05/2018 12:29

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Those to me all read like the player(Traore) still has the ball and the keeper is in his goal.

This is a different situation, it's an open goal basically. If you swap Terry with the goal keeper and Traore is running at him and wipes him out, it's a red card due to denying a clear goal scoring opportunity.

The roles are reversed which makes it EASIER to score and yet it's argued against for some weird reason.
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Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 16/05/2018 12:32

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I didn't see the game so won't pass comment myself.

There's a Football League referee in our office. He came up to see me and the first thing he said was I don't know the goalkeeper didn't get a red card, Mike Dean will never admit he's made a mistake, never has in the past and won't in the future. The keeper should have received a red card.

He then walked off without me saying a word.
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Liamo Posted on 17/05/2018 05:32

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
''The following must be considered:
• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders''

Buddy, those are the criteria for a DOGSGO offence (denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity).

That's not what this was however. It was (potentially) the denial of a goal by handling - a similar but separate offence for which different criteria apply. For a DOGSO offence you need a scenario where, absent the offence, a player would have been left with an obvious chance to score. In the denial of a goal scenario you have a situation where without the offence, the ball itself is going directly into the goal.

It doesn't need a player to be moving towards the goal and for the referee to consider the four criteria that DOGSO does, it just requires the referee to decide if a goal has been denied. To decide if a goal has been denied it's a much simpler proposition - was the ball heading into the net or not?

If the referee decides it wasn't or even if he's not sure, then he can't send the player off. I happen to think the ball probably was heading in but I'm not 100% sure so even though I'd like to disagree with him, I can understand why Mike Dean didn't issue a red card.

I would also say that I've seen keepers sent off in situations where it was much less clear that either a goal (or a goalscoring opportunity was denied) and I don't think anyone would have been at all surprised if the Villa keeper had been sent off.
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RichyNotSoRich Posted on 17/05/2018 06:48

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Don't know whether it's been mentioned but I was stood 10 yards from linesman and he was inline with play and he didn't even flag [?][?][?] as bent as the ref
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Buddy Posted on 17/05/2018 06:49

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I can't see any different criteria in the Laws though, and the "four" come under a common heading of "Denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity" on pp 103-104 rather than being a distinct category.

I wouldn't have been at all surprised with a sending off, and would have equally defended the referee's right to make that decision. It's the "worst decision ever", "not possible under the Laws" stuff I'm arguing against, as you know.
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Buddy Posted on 17/05/2018 06:50

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
I did mention that Richy, yes. That was why I thought originally it might have been inside the box.
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Ticker_Tape Posted on 17/05/2018 08:18

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Did the goalkeeper gain any advantage or seek to gain advantage ? you make it sound like it was a sheer accident and it was going to hit the corner flag.

The Sunderland ref got 6 months from refereeing Middlesbrough, Dean hopefully won't ever again.

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almeria2005 Posted on 17/05/2018 08:45

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
Buddy why would you think Dean would book the keeper for handling the ball in the penalty area
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Buddy Posted on 17/05/2018 09:08

Why has the board been invaded by Brighton fans?

 
[rle][smi]

I didn't. I thought he might have got the decision wrong the other way, until I saw the replay.
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