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Davey_C Posted on 13/02/2018 15:58
What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)
 
 
I know it was at a football game/stadium where the Hillsborough tragedy sadly took place, but I see Leeds Rhinos are currently rebuilding two of their stands and both feature sizable terraces for spectators to stand.

Yes it's two different games, but Headingley attracts crowds in the region of 15-20k depending of the opponents so what makes Rugby any different to football with regards to spectator safety? I'm not buying a different class of person attending or rugby doesn't have hooligans as a reason

Link: New Stands
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atypical_boro Posted on 13/02/2018 16:00

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
"I'm not buying a different class of person attending or rugby doesn't have hooligans as a reason"

Well they are the reasons I'm afraid.
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Tuncaythefunguy Posted on 13/02/2018 16:09

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Talk sport were talking about this (hawksbee and Jacobs) and hawksbee was saying that the same working class go to rugby and football. 99.999999% of Footy fans are incredibly behaved.
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atypical_boro Posted on 13/02/2018 16:11

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
While you have these little pockets of 'football lads' who watch, starry-eyed, films about 80s hooliganism etc and then think they're living in it on a Saturday it will never happen.
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Marvanelli Posted on 13/02/2018 16:11

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
It's the very small minority of fans in football that ruin it.
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KingOfTheTribes Posted on 13/02/2018 16:12
Edited On: 13/02/2018 16:15
What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I was at St Helens a couple of weeks ago watching the first game of the season. Not only can you stand you can vape and drink alcohol in the stands.

There is a total different mentality at rugby - take the Magic Weekend for example - all fans from all teams mixing in one stadium, drinking, but not fighting.

It would never happen in football. There are far too many idiots attending matches.




Edit:

Thinking back to the match there was no abuse directed at any players, officials or away fans of any note. Plenty of singing etc. It was refreshing to go to a sporting event like that and not hear drunks slinging obscenities around at every opportunity. Cheap too - £20 for my ticket and the beer was only £3.50 a pint.
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Borocelt Posted on 13/02/2018 16:13

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Give it time, i don't think we're too far away from safe standing in football.
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Tacker Posted on 13/02/2018 16:13

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
There is definitely a gulf in type of person who attends football compared to rugby.
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atypical_boro Posted on 13/02/2018 16:18

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I don't think its necessarily a different 'type' of person, its just that the cultures of the two sports are different and people attending the events behave according to the culture.

For example, the atmosphere at a rugby match is imho quite dull. That said, I'm no fan of football hooliganism. I like an inbetween.
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Jolival_LHD Posted on 13/02/2018 16:20

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
International football tournaments are mixed. You have designated areas which are predominantly for one set of fans or the other, but there will be large sections of the ground that have rival and neutral fans together.
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itsmsnaith Posted on 13/02/2018 16:28

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
KingOfTheTribes very good point with regards The Magic Weekend, despite going up and down the country with my daughter to watch her beloved Boro the biggest highlight of my year is what has become my annual trip to Newcastle.

12 Teams, 3 games a day, everyone mixed in, lots of beer (which you can drink in your seat), great laugh with a bunch of people you've never met before, a fantastic day out.

I love football but 2 teams and 1 game and you're guaranteed trouble of some description.
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Kevo4 Posted on 13/02/2018 17:37
Edited On: 13/02/2018 17:40
What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
No separation of the fans in the stands either

It really does just boil down to a different class of supporter

(EDIT) KingOfTheTribes made basically the same point previously, apologies.
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otto42 Posted on 13/02/2018 18:02

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
It is generally the same people going, but football always attracts that chavy element. You couldn't imagine people singing about child abuse or letting off pyrotechnics at rugby.
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pierrequiroule Posted on 13/02/2018 18:17

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
It really isn't the same people going. How many posters on here do you think have ever paid to go to a rugby game, league or union, let alone go regularly. Very few I think.
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FrozenHorse Posted on 13/02/2018 18:28

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
"Yes it's two different games, but Headingley attracts crowds in the region of 15-20k depending of the opponents so what makes Rugby any different to football with regards to spectator safety? I'm not buying a different class of person attending or rugby doesn't have hooligans"

Rugby League is every inch as working class as football.

I haven't got the answer as to what makes rugby different, but with RL it's not a matter of class.

I can't think of any examples of rugby hooliganism and plenty of examples of football hooliganism: we surely don't have to explain the reason to know it exists do we? People were perfectly aware of gravity before Newton explained it's laws, yes?
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itsmsnaith Posted on 13/02/2018 18:29

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I've never noticed anyone high on Coke at the Rugby but I've seen it plenty following Boro away, might be the difference.
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otto42 Posted on 13/02/2018 18:56

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
My chav comment above was slightly tongue in cheek, but the Lancashire lads I kniw who are into rugby league are also big football fans.

I have been to a few union club games, admittedly in the south, and the big difference is there isn't the same kind of intensity of support as football or even league. People even clap a good try by the opposition.
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Manny-Being-Manny Posted on 13/02/2018 19:00

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
It happens......

Link: Leeds v Salford
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Manny-Being-Manny Posted on 13/02/2018 19:01

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Once again....

Link: Leeds again
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anterimus Posted on 13/02/2018 19:19

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I was at Twickenham for the Wales match on Sat. 82,000 there, drinking all before, during and after the game, fans mixing and I didn't see 1 copper all day or see or hear any bother. Superb day out.
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rob_fmttm Posted on 13/02/2018 19:24

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I am just arranging today a meeting with Jon Darch and Boro fans and club. Jon is the absolute expert on safe standing and interpreting the legislation. He has pointed out that legislation about sitting in football grounds is actually all down to each Secretary of State. Every year the Sec of State gives an exemption to Brentford because they are building a new ground. He has the power to actually to allow standing at the Riverside or anywhere else. But doesnt.
The contrast with rugby league is bizarre and once again underlines that it isnt all about safety.
I really do think change will come soon in football to safe terraces.
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Manny-Being-Manny Posted on 13/02/2018 19:53

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Am I right in saying there isn't actually a written law to say football grounds must be all seater. I thought the Taylor Report was just a recommendation.
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MightyDuck Posted on 13/02/2018 19:57

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Is it because hardly anyone goes to watch domestic rugby so less chance for trouble?
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laughing_gravy Posted on 13/02/2018 20:04

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.

It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds.

The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.

The point is confirmed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport: ‘At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area’ (Source: Letter to Football Supporters’ Federation, 2008)
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Borocelt Posted on 13/02/2018 20:18

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
The thing is, you can talk about different types of supporter and all the rest of it, but that doesn't really explain away why it is considered safe for one to stand, but enforce the other to sit.

Now if you want to talk about serving alcohol, or how you police the fans, then absolutely you have a point... but the standing should make no difference at all, as long as it is certified as safe.
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HULLRED66 Posted on 13/02/2018 20:24

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Hull's rugby fans have caused a bit of trouble over the years but generally football is more tribal
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KingOfTheTribes Posted on 13/02/2018 20:33

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I think Rugby League fans are just as tribal as football fans, they just don’t need to express it by getting hammered, fighting or being abusive.
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1finny Posted on 13/02/2018 20:47

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
So, are we being discriminated against [?]
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Davey_C Posted on 13/02/2018 20:59

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
I thought you had 3 seasons to make your stadium all-seater once you reached the championship?

Just aswell burton havent spent on ground improvements isnt it as they look to be returning to league one
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38Red Posted on 13/02/2018 21:15

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Heysel. Football isn't just different to rugby. It's different to all sports.
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Starbuck Posted on 13/02/2018 21:45

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Go see Liverpool vs Everton if you want to see that it is possible for football fans to behave inside a stadium

Go to any other game to see why it will never happen
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Foggysfplandiet3 Posted on 14/02/2018 10:41

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Theres that old old saying; “rugby is a game for hooligans watched and played by gentlemen, Football is a game for gentlemen watched and played by hooligans”
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jiffy Posted on 14/02/2018 10:56

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
It does happen at rugby but doesnt get the same press coverage.

I used to live 5 minutes walk from Headingley and can confirm the huge amount of damage done in the area after cup semi final games over 2 years involving Widnes and the 2 Hull clubs that was never given any press coverage whatsoever.
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theboss Posted on 14/02/2018 10:59
Edited On: 14/02/2018 11:11
What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Mighty Duck, I dispute your claim. Have a look at the crowds watching Premiership Rugby both in England, Wales and Scotland and I think you will find that crowds are sizeable with many, if not most games, sold out.The difference comes in tiers two to three where crowds are relatively small and probably akin to non-league football crowds.
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boromike85 Posted on 14/02/2018 11:17

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
It's the way it is because it always has been. If you opened it up and let anyone sit where they wanted and mix with other fans then it would be weird at 1st but after a couple of games everyone would be used to it.

There is a very small minority of people looking for trouble. The same minority that means we have to have bouncers on every door on a night out. Unfortunately, this minority seem to mostly follow football rather than rugby.

Mix fans up and you remove a big element of the tribalism of football. We could probably get to the point quite quickly where everyone is mixed together, drinking in the stands is allowed without any trouble. I do believe that the segregation is a big part of the atmosphere. It would be nowhere near as good if it was mixed. There are always pockets of fans that create an atmosphere, the bigger those pockets become the better the atmosphere which leads to fans sitting together by choice anyway.

Segregation causes trouble. It breeds division and an "us v them" mentality. There will always be an element of trouble because a certain type of person goes looking for it. Punish them, not the rest of us.
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Caesium137 Posted on 14/02/2018 11:41

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
the boss, whilst some fixtures are well attended, the sheer amount of football clubs to rugby clubs skews the figures massively if taken as leagues. All this info is from Wiki, it gives a breakdown of the year and other details too, but I've trimmed it. The number of people watching football utterly dwarfs the numbers watching Rugby (of both codes)

Super League (Rugby league), England (1 club in France)
Total Attendance 1,182,437, Average Crowd 8,568

Championship (Rugby league), England
Total Attendance 284,132, Average Crowd 2,046

Aviva Premiership (Rugby union), England
Total Attendance 2,033,805, Average Crowd 15,065

Premier League (Association football), England (1 club in Wales)
Total Attendance 13,612,316, Average Crowd 35,822

EFL Championship (Association football), England
Total Attendance 11,105,922, Average Crowd 20,119

EFL League One (Association football), England
Total Attendance 4,378,948, Average Crowd 7,933

EFL League Two (Association football), England
Total Attendance 2,623,082, Average Crowd 4,752
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Borocelt Posted on 14/02/2018 11:46
Edited On: 14/02/2018 12:26
What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
People are still talking about segregation issues here.

No one is talking about taking segregation away in football. All of this doesn't answer how it can be inherently 'unsafe' for a football fan to stand on a terrace, whilst simultaneously 'safe' for a rugby fan.

The fact is, the entire reasoning is based on the legacy of Hillsborough. The thing is, we've established that was caused by multiple failures of the authorities, not the fans. There is no reason football fans on a terrace are inherently somehow unsafe. As long as it meets modern safety regulations, there is absolutely no reason it is unsafe for football fans to stand and watch a game in this way. It is absurd, in light of what has happened, that this hasn't been relaxed.
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theboss Posted on 14/02/2018 12:16

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Caesium137, Can't argue with the figures you have provided but average crowds of over 15,000 watching Premiership Rugby is still significant and is more than double that of average crowds to EFL League One football and three times bigger than average crowds watching EFL League Two football. It's only the top two leagues of football that attract much bigger crowds, as an average, than Premiership Rugby.
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Billy69_uk Posted on 14/02/2018 12:22

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
it boils down to one simple fact.

Rugby fans can be trusted to behave themselves, and football supporters can not.

granted its not all football fans that cant be trusted, but while there is a sizeable "minority" who engage in drunken anti social behaviour and the use of flares and smoke bombs etc, ALL football fans will continue to be treated as second class citizens.

IMHO standing will never (and should never) have a place in the top tiers of English football.
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Borocelt Posted on 14/02/2018 12:27

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
All of those things happen in the seats at the football now. They're nothing to do with standing up.
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Billy69_uk Posted on 14/02/2018 13:19

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
agree with you 100%, but whilst that behaviour is taking place no one in any kind of authority is going to put their name to standing.

far too much risk should another incident occur and the subsequent witch hunt.
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Muttley Posted on 14/02/2018 14:18

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Is it because rugby is so dull no-one gets agitated until the stewards come round and wake them so they can lock up?
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KingOfTheTribes Posted on 14/02/2018 14:57

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Not at all, Rugby is unpredictable and less boring than football.
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GlosRed Posted on 14/02/2018 14:58

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Ashton Gate is shared with Bristol Rugby twice each season ST holders of either sport can get free tickets for tuther sport. Last Saturday v Sunderland was a freebie for the rugby crowd (yeah I know what happened in the match ta). Quite funny watching rugby fans trying to bring their pints of Thatchers and Butcombe up to their seats, the looks of disbelief and seriously thinking the stewards were just having a laugh!
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Borocelt Posted on 14/02/2018 15:06

What Makes Rugby Any Different To Football (Standing)

 
Yes, but the whole point is that standing doesn't make a difference, and there's no reason to treat people differently on the basis of it. If anything, i'd argue the way the state has tried to nanny football fans has created more problems than it has solved.

My arguments for standing, and those of many in the safe standing campaign, is simply one which allows people to watch the game in the way they want, whilst not ruining the experience for people who don't want to stand. What you have now is just a situation where people who don't want to stand are forced to, as it happens en masse in certain areas of certain grounds, and particularly among away fans. I would choose to stand, but it's not fair to those who don't want to have their view obscured. It doesn't even need to be a safety argument.

For the record, i don't think you'll ever see the same style terraces which still persist in the lower leagues or rugby union, but i do think you're not far away from safe standing like they have at Celtic. We need to separate the arguments about behaviour and alcohol, they're separate concerns altogether, and shouldn't shape the decision. If those concerns are allowed to dominate the debate, we're simply failing ordinary fans, whether it's your excitable fan who enjoys standing, but is forced to sit, or your elderly fan who doesn't want to stand but is forced to because everyone around them is, and ultimately, no amount of stewarding and police can make a whole stand sit down. There is a pragmatic and safe solution, and there is ultimately no difference between Rugby and Football fans in this regard.
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