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shanetko Posted on 27/07/2020 18:49
Defeatist mentality or Delusional

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Seems to be two main trains of thought regarding this season

Some feel we should be more ambitious and be looking to kick on and merely accepting this Europa finish is a loser mentality

Others think we have overachieved massively and should be delighted with our lot, seeing the first group as deluded.

I can see both sides of it.. I think I'm with the first lot more though. Being ambitious isn't a crime and we have absolutely tossed away a golden opportunity. 24 points from 22 games is never acceptable. 38 points from 16 though I concede was probably a tad unsustainable.

Where was the determination to kick on and secure it in Jan window?

If you offered me 5th in August I'd have taken it. Feels like a damp squib now though.
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Filbo65 Posted on 27/07/2020 18:50
Defeatist mentality or Delusional

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Bit naive to think that one half of a season will automatically be replicated in the other half. Especially when we were pretty lucky to secure a fair proportion of those first half points.
It's also proved harder to maintain an illusion for 12 months than 10.
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Oadlad Posted on 27/07/2020 19:09
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I'm neither defeatist nor delusional.
Just realistic [smi]
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 27/07/2020 19:32
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No such thing as realistic otherwise we would never have won the league
You make the most of the present and we were gifted a Champions League place
If we had got three more points than Southampton got since the 9-0 win we would have been in the Champions League
It was bottling more than ever Spurs were able to manage[:D]
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shanetko Posted on 27/07/2020 19:31
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Yep. Thatís the point really Filbo. It wasnít sustainable and we needed reinforcements in January.
Would help if we had a manager who had any idea what his best team is or what formation to play. To call him the new tinkerman would be a discredit to the original one. He does it far more.
Our lack of depth horribly exposed when weíve had key injuries.
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kendalfox Posted on 27/07/2020 20:05
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We were gifted F All we lost all momentum due to the break in proceedings then we lost players which we could not afford to lose, factor in the crisis which was probably on Tops mind more than football hence the window was lost, not many did business in it anyway.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 27/07/2020 20:09
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We lost the momentum way before the break
Lost to Southampton , Norwich , Burnley and Villa in the cup
The only delusions on here are posters pretending there was not a huge bottling job[:D]
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yorkfox Posted on 27/07/2020 20:19
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Without doubt and as a good few said at the time the lack of business WB apart in the January window was scandalous. Spend 50 million on 2/3 players to boost/refresh the squad and guarantee holding on to Champions League and the vast majority of your top players. I know we have people draining the wage bill already but you can be sure everyone at the club will be rueing a missed opportunity now.
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essingtonblue Posted on 27/07/2020 20:21
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Momentum?
We had just won our first league game in 5 & also lost that semi to that crap villa side. Some momentum that.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 27/07/2020 20:25
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The only momentum was how fast we were going downhill[:D]
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northleicsblue Posted on 27/07/2020 20:30
Defeatist mentality or Delusional

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in the top 4 from September until the last week of the season, then didn't make it.
Thats a fck up whatever way anyone tries to paint it
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kendalfox Posted on 27/07/2020 20:53
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God knows what you XXXXXXe heads would have done in the 40's and 50' when we were constantly yo- yoing between leagues. you had it good most of the time since M O'N and you do feck all but moan and groan
When will you realise we haven't got 60/70/80 million to get the best and pay 'em ,£200 thousand a week plus get a grip of yourselves your
down but we ain't out and Hide stop XXXXXXe stirring
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Filbo65 Posted on 27/07/2020 21:22
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I know we've done some good business in the January window in years past such as Wilf and Mahrez, but Steve Walsh and many others have always said that most good players are hung onto by their Clubs until the summer. So if who you want ain't available, do you spend money for the hell of it? Course not.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 27/07/2020 21:22
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I am not stirring just putting a few right on the facts.[:D]
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Brauny Posted on 27/07/2020 22:08
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Well its not hard on here to see who wouldn't have a f@ckin clue if they were a manager of a football club.
You can see that some people cant look no further than some poor results. That is the catalyst for them to cast their pearls of wisdom on those of us that are not worthy of their encyclopedia of football knowledge.
The common theme is that we 'bottled it'
That's it, that's the judgement, we bottled it, and the answer to that is sack the manager. Sack him because he is buckin clueless. Yet there is no acceptance of some blatant and obvious circumstances that contributed to our 2nd half of season decline.
I let you wise old owls put me right, but firstly i'll give my useless take on it.

The 1st half of the season was sensational, at times the best football I have ever seen from a young and fresh team.
We were putting out a very decent 1st eleven, a team that looked capable of challenging right up there. The manager had them ticking, aka Barnes brilliant winner against a tough Blades team.
Newcastle played off the park.
Southampton dispatched on an historic night.
Dominant wins away to Palace and home to arsenal.
The champions too be cheating us with a buckin dive in the last minute.
Villa like Newcastle, played off the park.
It was all great stuff, even the fickle lot on here would of been preening with what they were witnessing.
There was a problem looming though, for in December we had EIGHT games.
A real tough ask for the players that had done so well. For that you couldn't blame them if fatigue was setting in. You also run the risk that you may incur more injuries when players start to lose their edge.
December drew to a close with Man City softening us up whilst Liverpool dished us the mother of all beatings.
BR acted on this, he knew that he couldn't keep playing that 1st eleven, I am sure he sensed burnout.
West Ham was the last 2019 fixture. There was no Vardy, Ricardo, Soyuncu, Ndidi, and Maddison. Despite that the 'bottler' Brendan came up with a great 2-1 win.

So into January, you guessed it ? We had another EIGHT games. Something had to give, we had an excellent 1st eleven, but we didn't have enough quality if things were forced upon us.

This is where a massive mistake was made.
2nd transfer window. Why did they not invest sufficiently at this time ?
There are some things we will probably never know.
Did Top tell Brendan that we need to sell if we are going to buy ?
Did Brendan think that with a healthy gap and without the knowledge at this stage of forthcoming injuries, that we had got enough to get us through ?
Was it a mutual decision between them.
Whatever happened it proved fatal later on.

I have defended Rogers in general but I will criticize him over the 1st two restart games.
Watford was a strange lackluster game that he didn't do enough or get enough from his players. Didn't look fit and coasted too much through that game.
Brighton was worse, that was a very poor game from us.
After that the injuries which followed proved the mistakes of the transfer window.
We still had glimpses with comprehensive wins over Palace and Sheff Utd, but the reinforcements were not up to the standard that the 1st eleven was setting earlier on.
All in all Brendan has made mistakes, even the best managers (pep) do
Our 'bottling' manager did achieve some things believe it or not.

Our 2nd best Prem finish.
+26 goal average, rarely seen in our entire history.
67 goals only bettered by the top teams.
Only the 2nd time they have qualified for Europe through league position in my lifetime.
Vardy's golden boot.

XXXXXX disastrous, sack the manager.

Well I look forward to the wisdom of people telling me why Brendan is clueless, but I will only listen to the points made if someone can come up with something better than him being just a 'bottler' or 'clueless'

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hackneyfox Posted on 27/07/2020 22:17
Defeatist mentality or Delusional

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Great post Brauny.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 27/07/2020 22:21
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Played not to lose but not to win.
Tactical substitutes horrendous.
Claiming the club had reached its target of fifth before we had the chance of finishing higher.
Only been here six months when he got himself involved in the Gooners job.
Brought in Perez and Bennett
Apart from this ?[:D]
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Oadlad Posted on 27/07/2020 22:37
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Yes, great post. The only thing to argue with is that January transfer windows are basically useless as clubs will not release anyone who is any good. And BR could not have forecast the loss of Mads, Chilly and Cags.
That post, considered, modest and knowledgeable contrasts with the flood of short term juvenile drivel on here by some who do not know the game or the business in which it is conducted.
How do I know it is juvenile? I spoke in those terms once myself many years ago.
Restored my faith, thanks...
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Mistryman Posted on 27/07/2020 22:41
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Excellent summation Brauny.
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FirenzeFox Posted on 27/07/2020 22:53
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Agree with most of a good post Brauny.
Why was Barnes Goal against the Blades left off MOTD top ten goals for the season ?
Answers on a postcard.....
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essingtonblue Posted on 27/07/2020 22:57
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A huge part of your point was fatigue, mainly using the same 14/15 players.
A fair point if it wasnít for teams like wolves/ Liverpool/ chelsea etc playing far more games than us & not coming anywhere near the Massive, continuous loss of competitiveness we had & still are bang in the middle of.
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hackneyfox Posted on 27/07/2020 22:57
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Hide
Ranieri claimed we'd hit our target in December, he told the press and players he wanted more. We have no idea what Rodgers said to the players but here's one thing he didn't say.
'Don't worry lads 5th is good enough, no need to try anymore, not as if we wanted those huge bonuses for CL qualification anyway.'
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smudgerfox Posted on 27/07/2020 23:00
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Some great points there
Not persuaded by the argument that we would have taken fifth last August - we had no way of knowing that arsenal, Spurs and for a long time United, would be so poor, then. We were assuming a par season from them and in that context would have been pleased with fifth.

We have been mostly poor against the best sides but what has cost us is some terrible results against the likes of Norwich, Bournemouth and Watford.

The finishing of the wingers and midfield players must improve -,we are letting opponents off the hook while dominating matches because we are simply not ruthless enough. Take Ndidi shot on Sunday - that has to go in - but he didnít even force a save. There was one game where Maddison gets into a great position in the box and chips a slow cross to Chilwell at the back stick. Not a percentage pass to produce a much needed goal but a worldie attempt which went horribly wrong and a criminal waste of a good position .

Iím also losing patience with Kasper - not sure you can be an inspirational leader when youíre so error prone.

And while Rodgers is the best manager weíre likely to get - his settling for fifth was revealing . We wouldnít have won the league with that mentality and his grovelling respect for the big clubs and their power is at odds with his mission. We may not get as good a chance of CL. again - and CL raises your recruitment prospects.


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essingtonblue Posted on 27/07/2020 23:29
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Your right hackney, no one knows what rodgers said to the players privately, but everyone sure as hell knows what he was saying publicly.
You know things like how huge/ massive/strong/giant brilliant etc etc alot of the opposition were.
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Brauny Posted on 27/07/2020 23:44
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Essington, Wolves finished 7th. They never slumped like us, but to counter they never hit our heights. They plugged and plodded away in a more consistent fashion. Our team is younger than Wolves, that itself is an indicator to why we are erratic and them more predictable.
You can choose the Wolves model if you want, but I watched Cov doing 30 years of nothingness until they were relegated.
At least our years have been interesting, be it good or bad.
Regarding Chelsea and Liverpool having more games, well if you have not noticed they do have much stronger squads.
They can chop and change without doing any harm, we lose 4 players and we are severely hindered. That is why this attitude of entitlement with some of you lot, exposes the ludicrous assumption that we should just be better than other teams, when there is no evidence to back the argument
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DagenhamFox Posted on 28/07/2020 07:10
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Iím sorry to keep on mentioning my German team Borussia Monchengladbach but there are similarities between the two clubs so please bear with me.

Until recently we had our purple patch in the 60ís. Gladbach had theirs in the 70s and have done little of note until recent times.

In the last few years they have qualified for the Champions League twice and the Europa League couple of times.

The final day of last season they played Dortmund at home. A win would have seen them into the Champions League. They lost (Sancho scored a decent goal), finished fifth and went into the Europa League. I was there that day, a bit gutted but the fans were delighted. They had achieved European football.

They had a shocker in the EL. First up was Wolfsberg a small Austrian club who this was their first ever European game. They lost I think 5-0. They never recovered.

Towards Christmas Gladbach were leading the Bundesliga. I dreamt of an unlikely double but they too like us fell away.

Their last game of this season was Herta Berlin at home. Like last season they needed to win this to qualify for the Champions League. Win they did and now they get to have a third shot at thus tournament.

There are two lessons we can learn from this.

The first is our mentality as fans. Because we won the league some if us feel we have the right to eat at the top table. Well you know what? We donít, we have to earn it and when we do we should celebrate. Weíve had an amazing season and European football and a group of 6 matches is our reward, not a play off against Atletico Madrid or Red Star Belgrade. Yes we have aspirations to become a regular top 6 side, we may well achieve this but if it was easy plenty of other teams would have been up there too. They havenít.

The second is we will go away and learn from this, improve and we will come back stronger next season. If we have the same chance next season of Champions League football, like Gladbach I donít think theyíll make the same mistake a second time.
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foxesneverquit Posted on 28/07/2020 07:28
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Excellent post and hopefully we will get the same chance next season.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 28/07/2020 07:28
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It wonít happen four wins from 21 ainít a blip[:D]
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kendalfox Posted on 28/07/2020 07:55
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You only have to go through history of how teams grow in stature to tell you time is the big feature, learning and growing, so as in life you meet pitfalls but you learn by them,all the big clubs have learnt through time and grown some are fortunate to have big investors some grew through having youngsters moving up
to fill the age gaps, I hope this is the way we grow as we cannot compete money wise I sadly won't be here to see it but I hope it comes so the Club can see and persevere with there aims.
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TartanFox Posted on 28/07/2020 08:42
Defeatist mentality or Delusional

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Only 5 league wins in 2020 is the most damning stat I don't think it's unfair for people to question the manager and the club on the back of that.

The club spunked the chance to kick on after we won the league and they threw it away again this season.

It's actually worse than Spurs supposed title challenge collapse in 2016, they were never seriously in the race, despite the attempts of the media to make it so. We were miles ahead in this race and we choked. Outwitted by 2 managers one wsacked from Cardiff and one who couldn't get Derby out the Championship.

So two days on, for me, a slap on the back and a chorus of "unlucky lads" still doesn't cut it. We need a serious recruitment drive but as Lee Congerton is in charge of that I have zero faith it will produce anything of quality.

I would very much like to be proved wrong next season.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 28/07/2020 08:49
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The club is in the middle of a slump and if it was at the start of the season there would be huge concern about relegation
It was an unbelievable opportunity along with the new training ground to move on
The Europa League has been frequented by Burnley and Wolves in recent times not really clubs that are at the top table.
People on here thinking we have had a good season so be it , they have a losers mentality
The owners and many fans do not[:D]
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hampshirefox Posted on 28/07/2020 09:48
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Some really good points on this thread from both points of view.
At the start of the season if you'd offered me top 6 I'd have been delighted. By Christmas top 4 was on the cards. Then we were "Rodgered" by Man City and Liverpool and Rodgers started to tinker. The Villa home League Cup game was shocking. They were in no sort of form yet Rodgers allowed them to dominate. Gradually with odd tactics and injuries everything started to fall apart.
I don't know how good Rodgers is when things start drifting but the signs are not good. I'd love to ask Jamie Vardy what he thinks but that's a non starter!
I do know that I was more angry after the Bournemouth game than any Leicester game I can remember. We weren't great but we were well on top and their key defender goes off injured before half time. Rather than hammer home this advantage Nacho is substituted to protect a lead and the rest is history.
Lockdown also makes you overthink things but all in all I believe we have squandered a great opportunity by failing to be just an average team since Christmas.
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kendalfox Posted on 28/07/2020 09:50
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So any manager that comes along and has a slump get rid ......Feck me O Riley you won't get many decent managers if thats your bag

Ok Hide pick me a manager that would come here on our budget and do a lot better with what's at his disposal and the limitations of buying.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 28/07/2020 09:55
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If the reported salary of £10 million a year is correct then you can take your pick[:D]
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sixthswan Posted on 28/07/2020 09:55
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Defeatist, or delusional matters not one jot.

Collectively, the Leicester City set-up ended up with us finishing 5th. It could have been better. Historically we've almost always done worse.

Time to forget about it now and move on.
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hackneyfox Posted on 28/07/2020 10:17
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You don't get away with it that easy Hide.
Name a couple that would be an improvement and would actually come here?
Improvement meaning over the whole season not based on our last 20 games.
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hidewalkamillionmiles Posted on 28/07/2020 10:21
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You are only as good as your last game let only twenty
I do not know what managers would come here but 200 grand a week a new training facility and some good young talent with cash to spend
There will be no shortage of good candidates from around the world
To name an individual is an impossibility it depends on how attractive the above are to the individual
In my mind there are far worse jobs going, it attracted Rodgers at half the salary[:D]
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Oadlad Posted on 28/07/2020 10:38
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In a long tough season you end up where you belong. Our shallow depth of squad caught up with us, no mystery.
As for the end of season form, it reminds of how fans react to last minute goals. Nick a win with one and all is good, lose a couple of points in stoppage time and it feels like a defeat.
On the manager front, it is his first season here and with most players recruited by others. He has continued to instill in the players the necessary ability to play in several different set ups, often in the same match.
So, he has been feeling his way and next season should start to see the fruits of this learning curve for him and the playing squad.
I anyone is convinced it is going to fail, chuck your ticket in.
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shanetko Posted on 28/07/2020 11:41
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Pochettino, Allegri, Marcelino all without clubs and are potentially available. NFP too [:D]

Options to try and poach others of course as well.

Wonder if a big club will ever take a punt on Wilder. Could end up in a situation like Dyche where nobody dare give it a go because of how Moyes went at Man U.

All speculation anyway..

I doubt Top will be slow on the trigger if we are slumping still come October/Nov.
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thringyfox Posted on 28/07/2020 11:46
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When are the fixtures out? If we get a tough start with our injuries/suspensions and we don't turn it round, we could be up a certain creek
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foxesneverquit Posted on 28/07/2020 13:30
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There is also the small issue of the millions to pay off BR and his staff.
Also, we will not have the additional income from the CL.
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collibosher70 Posted on 28/07/2020 13:44
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Great post and brauny is bang on.
5th before the start and id of snapped your hand off...the injuries to 3 key players didn't help and let's face it we are carrying a bit of dead wood.
His substitutions annoy me and the playing of 2 dms...when we're pushing for a goal he'll sub nacho !!!
But let's see what the transfer window holds.
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shanetko Posted on 29/07/2020 15:19
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Re the monster salary: We could drip pay him a salary giving him a non job effectively gardening leave if it came to not wanting to stump the lump sum pay off up if that was a stumbling block to a change of manager.

I think whatever any of us want he will definitely be starting the next season in charge so no choice but to get behind him and hope our recruitment is spot on through the summer. I think its downhill from here but I want to be proved wrong. Nobody wants to see their team suffer to score points.

Lee Congerton being a big part of this recruitment is definitely a concern though.
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