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hackneyfox Posted on 12/03/2019 19:22
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Edited On: 12/03/2019 19:25
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Brown bread
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Mustapha_Teabreak Posted on 12/03/2019 19:31
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closer than last time.
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stokiefox Posted on 12/03/2019 19:33
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TAXI FOR TERESA

[:D]
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hackneyfox Posted on 12/03/2019 19:36
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Vote on No Deal tomorrow.
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allblu Posted on 12/03/2019 19:43
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We could be heading for a complete re-alignment of UK Politics. If there is a GE then quite a few MPs could be seeking other career opportunities. This could be a dangerous time akin to Germany in the 30's.
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Surffers Posted on 12/03/2019 19:49
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The UK is a laughing stock run by donkeys a minor EU state under the dictatorship.
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billsballbag Posted on 12/03/2019 19:51
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I don't remember the original referendum vote requiring a deal to leave the EU.
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Filbo65 Posted on 12/03/2019 20:39
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MPs seem to have forgotten that they voted for no deal if 29 March arrived without one [rle]
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harwichfox Posted on 12/03/2019 20:43
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I don't remember the referendum saying that we had to implement it.
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billsballbag Posted on 12/03/2019 20:50
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A gentle reminder that no-one that wants to go into politics should be allowed too.

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Filbo65 Posted on 12/03/2019 21:08
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Did / does anyone honestly believe that the whole effort and expense of holding a national once-in-a-lifetime referendum was purely and simply a pointless exercise of finding out people's opinions, so that those findings could be ignored??
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Surffers Posted on 12/03/2019 21:12
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The puppet masters in Brussels are partying at the thought of robbing the UK taxpayer indefinitely while dumping its dross in the UK.
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billsballbag Posted on 12/03/2019 21:13
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Yeh but 16 year olds were denied a vote and they’re 18 now so could vote.

(...whilst some of the older generation who voted the ‘wrong’ way are no longer with us)
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kendalfox Posted on 12/03/2019 21:18
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"Politicians and diapers should be changed often for the same reason"
Mark Twain
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Mustapha_Teabreak Posted on 12/03/2019 22:56
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Ironically, the very same people who say polityicians should be voted out if they don't go through with brexit, are the ones who say having a second ref is going against 'the will of the people'
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Mustapha_Teabreak Posted on 12/03/2019 22:57
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bbb, the ref didn't say how to leave, you can read that both ways.
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Surffers Posted on 12/03/2019 22:57
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Stick to Trump you plastic Yank
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Mustapha_Teabreak Posted on 12/03/2019 23:04
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you're almost as dull as hide and much dimmer.
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Surffers Posted on 12/03/2019 23:20
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Your posts gives boring a new meaning,plastic Yank. Stay in the US it needs nutters like you.
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Bruin Posted on 13/03/2019 00:22
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MT: Yes. How is that ironic? If one supports brexit, then one would believe that polityicians (sic) should be voted out if they don't go through with it. Similarly, as the only reason for a 2nd ref would be to attempt to overturn the result of the original vote, it would only be remainer wimps who would advocate it, therefore going against the will of the people who voted for it. Wtf you onabart? [?]

BLUE ARMY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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snootyfox Posted on 13/03/2019 00:38
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I've been living through changes
And I could swing for you
I can see the veins in my hands
Are showing through
But if you disguise
What these things are doing to me
If you criticize them
I'll know that you can see
Until you realize
It's just a story
Until you realize
It's just a story
Consequently my reaction
Is getting rather strange
I can see your course of action
Leading to a change
You've got to get ready for me
Is it real
Or is it treason
Is it treason
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Bruin Posted on 13/03/2019 00:47
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They look like song lyrics to me. Are they relevant? Is your teardrop exploding? It may very well have done mind, if you'd sampled the chilli cc Mrs Bruin served up this evening. TNT by pipette.

BLUE ARMY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Mustapha_Teabreak Posted on 13/03/2019 05:16
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Mr Bruin,
Why is a vote for an mp approx every 5 years ok instead of once only til they die, but the brexit ref was a one time deal never to be revisited?
why do we get a do over for MP's just in case our opinions have changed but not BREXIT?
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FoxOnTheRun Posted on 13/03/2019 06:01
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Why did we have to wait over 40 years for a referendum on the e.u ?
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LeicesterRino Posted on 13/03/2019 06:37
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Let’s have a referendum every five years
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DagenhamFox Posted on 13/03/2019 06:52
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“Yeh but 16 year olds were denied a vote and they’re 18 now so could vote.

(...whilst some of the older generation who voted the ‘wrong’ way are no longer with us)”

BBB there is no right or wrong way, it’s people’s opinions. The public voted to leave so in my opinion we should leave. If that means we leave with no deal let’s do that.


Today’s vote is a waste of time a bit like yesterday’s. The MP’s will mostly reject the option of No Deal so we’ll have to ask to extend the process.

We’re still in the position that the EU hold the cards and I’m certain nobody else would be able to get a better deal from them. They need us as much as we need them. The threat of a no deal may put the wind up them and put some pressure on the EU to give us more of what we’re asking for. Yes it’s a risk but I’d rather that than a couple more months with no real progress and we do it all again in May.
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ClaphamFox Posted on 13/03/2019 08:19
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Daggers, you are correct in saying that nobody else would be able to extract a better deal from the EU. There's nobody else in the Tory party who could get a better deal, and Labour wouldn't be able to do so either. The reason is simple: the deal is the only deal we were ever going to get or ever will get. That's the way it has been since the beginning and that's the way it remains.

The belief among some people that the EU will somehow cave in at the last minute and offer us dramatically improved terms rests upon the massively flawed assumption that this is a negotiation between two approximately equal partners. It isn't. The EU holds ALL the cards and while a no deal Brexit will certainly hurt certain European industries, it is a much greater threat to British business. The government knows this. The EU knows this. That's why every time a conversation is to be had, May has to get on a plane to Brussels or whichever European capital to beg for better terms. How many times have they come over here to discuss Brexit? Never. Why not? Well, why would they?

The deal the EU has offered is not going to change. If parliament votes to rule out a no deal Brexit today, it will make precisely zero difference to the negotiations. You can't weaken your negotiating position if there's nothing to negotiate in the first place.

The question is whether any of that matters. Should we just leave anyway and to hell with the consequences? Lots of people seem to think so. Would British entrepreneurs respond to the new situation with energy and creativity, and help to rebuild our economy much more quickly than the 'remoaners' think? I really don't know. It's possible. What is clear is that even if Article 50 is extended tomorrow, as seems likely, at some point we're going to have to decide whether to leave without a deal, leave with a deal that effectively keeps us as members but without any actual influence, or remain.
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Surffers Posted on 13/03/2019 08:36
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She opened the talks by offering £40 billion for zero in return so why should the EU offer anything the stupid cow has given them all they wanted for nothing .

Now you idiot remainers want to give the EU more power by throwing away the last card she could play a no deal exit,you serfs have never done a deal in your sad life's.

Ms May never wanted to leave the EU and she's failed to do the job the voters gave her, time to move her out and have an election with a new Tory leader on a leave with no deal mandate no more pandering to unelected clowns.

The British political class have no back bone and have made the UK a laughing stock if there is no exit the EU will strip the UK bare in every way .
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ClaphamFox Posted on 13/03/2019 08:38
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If you actually believe that a no deal Brexit is a 'card' that May could play, then I'm afraid you do not understand the situation.
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bnet Posted on 13/03/2019 08:40
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so we have no chance . We should take the only option that keeps us in charge of our own destiny, get out on the 29th and deal with what comes. Everything will drop in to place eventually and we won't be dictated too by foreign unelected globalists.

Clapham, whats the thoughts on the City of London losing its base to Frankfurt ?
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ClaphamFox Posted on 13/03/2019 08:42
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There will be a realignment for sure, bnet, but it probably won't be as dramatic as some people believe. My firm is adding staff to our offices in Luxembourg and Frankfurt, but the vast majority of us will probably remain in London, no matter what. A lot will depend on what the government does to make the UK an attractive enough place to continue doing business.
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Surffers Posted on 13/03/2019 08:45
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Stay in the EU and become a minor state , yeah that's very attractive to who?
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hackneyfox Posted on 13/03/2019 09:16
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Me and 16,141,240 (and rising) others.

If we scrap Brexit completely we stay as a major player in the largest trading bloc in the world.
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Surffers Posted on 13/03/2019 09:52
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Not quite the truth any more the North American trade block is more powerful and the Asian Pacific is growing every year while the EU has declined it's world trade from 30% to 15% .
We have never been a big player in the EU just a big payer and its dumping ground .

17.7 million people made you a loser get over it .
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sixthswan Posted on 13/03/2019 10:00
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You make the point already raised. The continued and rising power of blocs elsewhere in the world, make the EU even more important to us.

The UK is a big player in the EU. That is why we don't use the Euro and have very favourable payment terms.

But it doesn't matter really whether we are powerful of not within the EU. Outside of it we would be far weaker and easier to be exploited by trade blocs, including the EU.
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Brauny Posted on 13/03/2019 10:06
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Largest trading bloc in the world, but relatively only a small percentage of the worlds trade.

For those that want a 2nd referendum (to reverse the largest democratic vote )the MP's who have gone against their election manifesto should face a 2nd vote in their own constituencies. Let the people who voted them in on their manifesto, decide whether they are still fit to be their MP.
The MP's should have resigned from their parties like the independent group, if the electorate are to have any trust in what they are voting for.
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Surffers Posted on 13/03/2019 10:08
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We lost 70% of our industry while in the EU ,fact.

The UK has no real power it's influence is 0.99% we only have 72 MEP's.

We pay in more than 25 other countries and get less out than Poland.

All our trade terms are interfered with by countries like Malta,we are little more than a slave state.
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haardaarss Posted on 13/03/2019 10:59
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...and all Corbyn can offer is a vision of Brexit where we effectively stay in the EU while calling for a General Election which he must know will blast him to political oblivion.

Where's Lord Bucket Head when we need him?
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hackneyfox Posted on 13/03/2019 11:27
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We lost 70% of our industry whilst on the EU may be true (your figures are always biased).

We didn't lose 70% of our industry because we are in the EU.

You made some spurious claim recently about the demise of GEC. I proved that it was down to an inept chairman, I don't believe you replied to that. I wonder why?

Did Dyson leave due to the EU or because he could improve profits by using a workforce on lower salaries in the far east?
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harwichfox Posted on 13/03/2019 11:27
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England batting collapse?
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DagenhamFox Posted on 13/03/2019 11:51
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If we leave with no deal we may get more of what we want from the EU. We’ll at least put he frighteners on them as they expect us to conform with their demands.

If we no deal we’ll certainly be in charge of our own destiny for good or for bad, probably a mix of both good and bad.

The MP’s in Parliament today will not make a decision and will vote against a no deal split, so everything will just be delayed by a couple more months.

Another General Election is the last thing the country needs right now. Why Corbyn or anyone else would like to be Prime Minister right now though I have no idea.
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ClaphamFox Posted on 13/03/2019 12:13
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The column below is by Danny Finkelstein in today's Times. He makes some interesting points about the bind that the Tories are now in (he's a Tory himself).


Tory Brexit crisis is even worse than it looks

What is the point of Brexit? This is not a rhetorical question. I believe that by trying to answer this question calmly and fairly, the true extent of the Conservative Party’s troubles can be understood. However big the party’s tactical difficulties, and this morning they are very big, the strategic problem is even bigger.

Let’s leave aside for the moment the case for remaining in the EU and focus on what Leavers believe are the advantages of Brexit.

What drives the Conservative Party now is the determination of hard Leavers to secure these advantages. This search will determine the party’s next leader and the thrust of its policy. So it’s worth trying to understand their position a little better.

There are four broad arguments for leaving, the first of which is the strongest. The EU is determined to create a superstate and if we remain members we will become merely a province of Brussels. We may have secured opt-outs and guarantees but these will provide little long-term protection against the federalising instinct.

So by leaving, Britain avoids being swallowed up as the EU changes. The longer we remain, the more danger we are in. The accumulated treaties of the EU and the behaviour of its institutions, particularly its court, mean that resisting federalism on the inside is very difficult. So we need to be out of the political structures of the EU and no longer subject to the rulings of its court.


If you accept this argument then Brexit has this obvious benefit: we will still be Britain. This advantage may be a little abstract but it is undeniably important and leads some to argue that economic questions are secondary. However, if this advantage to Brexit was enough by itself, there wouldn’t be so many Brexit supporters spending months condemning Mrs May’s deal as Brexit in name only.

The row we have been having is because there are three other advantages, at least as they see it, that Brexit supporters hope to gain from leaving. There is immigration, of course. By leaving the EU, Britain will “take back control” of its borders and be able to set its own immigration policy. For some this is a constitutional issue only, for others it is about the numbers and how many people from European countries are able to live, work and claim benefits in Britain.

Then there is the opportunity to leave the institutions of the single market. For many Brexiteers, who are free-market Conservatives, the idea has always been to liberate Britain from overregulation by unaccountable “Eurocrats”.

Together with the fourth advantage of Brexit — that we leave the customs union — Brexit will set the country free from the old continent and its backward ways. A low-tax, low-regulation country, no longer held back by its neighbours, will look outward to the world.

That’s the idea anyway.

Of course there is a constitutional argument that we should set our own regulations, but it would be pretty odd to go to the trouble of leaving the EU and regaining the right to regulate only to use that right to introduce the same regulations that Europe has.

And this is why the Conservative Party, so stuck tactically after last night’s crushing defeat, with little idea what to do next, is stuck even more tightly strategically.

Just at the moment when the economic argument for deregulation will look strongest, and at the moment when the party is likely to choose a Brexiteer and deregulator as its next leader, the political ability to follow this path will look ever more difficult.

Outside the EU Britain will have to work hard to encourage foreign companies to invest. We will have made it more difficult for them in a number of ways, so we will have to compensate. This means making the country’s tax, regulation and immigration regime more attractive to investors. Something that many Brexit leaders would have no problem with themselves. Indeed, for them, the opportunity of doing this is part of the point of leaving.

However, the political problems quickly become obvious.

To start with the simplest one, people are highly loss averse. Conservative deregulators will discover that regulations of which people were previously unaware will soon seem to many to be part of the immutable Great British Way of Life. The right to be protected from chlorinated chicken, for instance. Loss aversion is very powerful and will make changing any inherited EU rules really difficult, robbing our departure of much of its point.

More complicated and more serious is that becoming the party of Brexit has meant swapping votes in some prosperous southern constituencies for votes in less prosperous northern ones. Yet winning a few extra votes in these new seats is not enough. The Tories have to gain enough new votes to actually win these seats, otherwise the party loses old constituencies without winning new ones. So it has to press harder.

The trouble is that the policy of small-state deregulators, and the logic of Brexit, isn’t particularly attractive to voters in these new seats. There is a gap between a free-market policy of cutting corporate taxes and appealing to a more working-class demographic.

Trump Republicans have worked out how to bridge this gap: by more cultural provocation and making a racist appeal to older white male voters. Leaving aside the fact that many Tory Brexiteers would find this tactic profoundly unattractive, it is, at best, a short-term strategy as younger, more liberal voters turn against it.

And even in the short term there is a contradiction. Many Brexit leaders want control of immigration but also want generous quotas. They may find their potential new voters don’t agree. And how else to attract them if not that?

In other words, there are abstract benefits to leaving the EU but many of the concrete advantages are ones that Brexit voters don’t really want. Which leaves the Conservative Party facing two directions at once.

Today the position of the Tories looks grim. Perhaps, however, its external foes might come to its aid. A Norway-plus Brexit may now be imposed. This could make Brexit largely pointless. But at least it would relieve the Conservative Party of its strategic dilemma.
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Mustapha_Teabreak Posted on 13/03/2019 16:47
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Rino, that's what we do over here yearly.
Every November, any citizen can get a Measure or Proposition on a ballot if they gather enough signatures, and the vote is legally binding on the legislature.
you can either lobby your local rep (MP) to do it, or do it yourself.

you can have more or less democracy, your choice, but people who say no to a second ref, but yes to voting for MP's every 5 years to me want their cake and eat it.
"because we've already had one" is not an argument, since we had one in 1975 to remain.
Where's the cutoff 5 10 15 20 years???

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bnet Posted on 13/03/2019 17:36
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16,141,240 (and rising)

my opinion is you are very wrong about the bit in brackets. I actually think its the opposite to what the communists keep claiming. (and declining) would fit more accurately .

Neither can be proved either way so its worthless stating it by ins or outs.
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Drew-Peacock Posted on 13/03/2019 17:40
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We have never had a referendum to joint the EU
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LeicesterRino Posted on 13/03/2019 18:42
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Mustapha I have no idea what you’re rambling on about
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Surffers Posted on 13/03/2019 19:06
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Hackney Rolls Royce,JLR,Ford,Hoover,Cadbury to name but a few companies in the UK that closed plants and made many 1000's of British workers redundant because they moved production to cheap labour eastern European EU members with EU grants .

The EU has not protected UK workers it's dumped it's dross in the UK which lead to zero hour contracts for the unskilled .

Alstom picked up GE for peanuts and asset stripped it to the bare bones , yet another French company that has benefited from our EU membership.
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kendalfox Posted on 13/03/2019 19:09
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I would love to know what these Conservative and Labour remainers really want, do they want to kill off GB as most of these were the moaners about how much power the EU had over us
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Bruin Posted on 13/03/2019 20:07
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@Mustapha

In a GE perhaps it isn't the voter's opinions which change, but the evolved position and stance along with the method and willingness of application shown by the party they voted for which alters.

Most rational people have a basic position which remains with them for as long their own circumstances remain stable, or it evolves gradually as that same person's career/life path shifts in one direction or another as those circumstances change for the better or for worse. If your opinion changes with the wind (or every 5 years), it is a sign that you really haven't got to grips with life in the first place and have foregone your right to a ballot paper on polling day.

But to cut through all that, after a GE there are 5 yrs to monitor how the government is faring then vote accordingly. Re brexit, it's like all the remainers are lying on their backs, kicking their legs in the air, yelling: 'I'll thcream, and I'll thcream till I'm thick if you make me leave the EU!' And all this before the fkucin' thing has even been implemented. FFS, common decency and respect for democracy now decrees that brexit must be given a chance.

BLUE ARMY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Filbo65 Posted on 13/03/2019 20:15
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If the referendum is re-run – what would the remain slogan be? "Tell them again" is pretty powerful as far as election slogans go for leavers, so what will the other be?
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bnet Posted on 13/03/2019 21:06
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They could sing "you don't know what you're doing".
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Bruin Posted on 14/03/2019 00:26
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My dummy's been chucked on the lounge floor
You'd better vote 'Remain' this time, or
.............
.............
.............

We'll have to do it again then won't we, eh?

BLUE ARMY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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hackneyfox Posted on 14/03/2019 10:14
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Communists bnet?
Really?
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Surffers Posted on 14/03/2019 10:21
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Not you Hackney, socialists only talk about an equal society while drinking expensive red wine at boring dinner parties.
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sixthswan Posted on 14/03/2019 10:41
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There can never be any such thing as an equal society.

But society can be made more equal.

Capitalism is the only way the world can work.

Some people are more likely to succeed than others. Some people don't want to succeed. Some people succeed at things that don't have monetary reward. Some people give their money away to help others succeed.

Red wine and dinner parties have nothing to do with it.

Unless the suggestion is that if you want a fairer society; you must devote yourself to frugality and misery, or live in a monastery and sleep on a concrete bed?

You have the political nous of a five year old.
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