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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 09/06/2016 23:59
After watching Question Time, I'm convinced that very few...

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.... people know what is what when it comes to the EU and yet they're being asked to vote in a referendum that could have far reaching consequences for the UK.

The good folk of Folkestone demonstrated their general lack of knowledge of the effects good or bad of the EU and the so-called experts voicing opinions that are so extreme that they have little credence except to the extremists among us.

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Alphabet_King Posted on 10/06/2016 00:16
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Wayne I said this before the referendum was announced when the tories were putting it in their election manifesto.

Unfortunately it is what it is and the referendum is going ahead. It was so predictable that no actual intelligent debate would ever be had on the subject (and I count both sides in that criticism).
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 10/06/2016 00:44
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As Martin Lewis said later, no politician or campaigner has been brave enough to say that in or out both have their good and bad points. Based on the little he knows and the risks involved he's 55% and forty five out.
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John_Knee Posted on 10/06/2016 01:03
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Martin Lewis said he didn't know what would happen but since he is naturally more risk adversive, he will be voting remain. And he also said he was basing it purely on the economics and not the wider issues.
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haberdasher Posted on 10/06/2016 06:29
After watching Question Time, I'm convinced that very few...
Edited On: 10/06/2016 06:36
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I watched both QT and ITV debate, it was striking how much better the leave campaign did in both debates. Especially with Eddie Izzard who I really like as a person, he really didn't help their cause and came across as completely ridiculous in this instance. His ideals are good, Utopian planet free from poverty and suffering, but the EU isn't going to be the solution to all the worlds woes and bring the world together to fix things, I thought that would be more something the United Nations could play a better role in doing.

I thought if people watched what I watched and hadn't decided then would have probably leaned in favour of a brexit. The arguments were far better, and presented in a far better way. Did anyone else feel that way, after all I was trying to think how it would look neutral, but I am biased.

The personal attacks on Boris and Farages' lineage didn't help either.

As for the 'We are all Brussels', I nearly choked on my food. If I was for IN that would be a marketing coup. Get printing the T-Shirts.
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Mustafa Posted on 10/06/2016 07:20
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I'm not watching any of the debates because Fatima and I voted three weeks ago.

All I can contribute is that when I checked yesterday, Remain was 3/1 on, and shortening.
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arthurly Posted on 10/06/2016 07:28
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I think Remain are going to lose, unfortunately. I think Andy Burnham thinks so to.

I shall get some T Shirts printed with 'Don't blame me I voted Remain'.
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John_Knee Posted on 10/06/2016 08:40
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Even though I will vote out, I anticipate a narrow Remain victory as people will always stick with the devil they know....
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 10/06/2016 10:08
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Martin Lewis made valid points and he is not risk averse but his general stance is that there are gains to be made but the higher the gain the higher the risk.

What did strike me was the not only the misleading statements regarding the UK's EU contribution where some stick to the gross but on immigration especially. They quote figures that include migration from the globe and not just the EU; they never talk about net immigration and then Farage talks about building a house every four minutes to house immigrants; the guy's wrong that includes all people that need homes.

On another point made by Martin Lewis was the fact that people come here for economic reasons; other economies will grow and people will go there instead of the UK. It won't be an everlasting thing.
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Nobby66 Posted on 10/06/2016 11:06
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"Even though I will vote out, I anticipate a narrow Remain victory as people will always stick with the devil they know"

I have always thought exactly that John, I think it was proved during the last general election. However, I have spoken to a number of people recently who were old enough to vote when we first entered the EU (I was a bit too young but remember seeing all the tv speeches from the likes of Ted Heath etc) and the general feeling from them is was the same, it was all new and no-one really understood what joining meant.
Imagine their surprise when they realised that all the promises made about their lives improving in the EU turned out to be lies. My point here is that we entered because of lies told to us as a nation and we will either leave or remain based on similar lies from both sides. We'll be better off in some ways but worse off in others.
I forget who it was but someone on tv gave the following advice.....

If you're one of the 'undecided', imagine we are 'out' at the moment. Do you think we would be better off by joining? If you can't answer 100% yes, then you should vote 'leave'

Sound advice I reckon [;)]
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Rainham_Gill Posted on 10/06/2016 11:23
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If you are asking people to imagine that we are 'out' at the moment, then you're asking people to imagine what this country would be like had we not joined up some 40 years ago.

So you're asking people to think about 40 years of imagined history and how different things would be economically and culturally over the course of that time. The alternate UK of 2016 would be a very different place from what it is now, in fact so would the whole of Europe, that means people would be different and their priorities would be different.

So no, I don't think anyone can accurately imagine what the UK and the rest of Europe would be like had we never joined up in the first place, unless you have a time machine!
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Nobby66 Posted on 10/06/2016 11:49
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Then I would suggest that, before you decide, speak to a resident of Switzerland or Norway and ask if they are better or worse off than they were 40 years ago.
As you say, it's hard to imagine how that 40 years would have changed the UK had we stayed out but those two countries seem to have survived ok. Even Dodgy Dave can't seem to make up his mind, swaying between "The UK would survive outside The UK" and "leaving would cause recession and leave us open to terrorism and wars"
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Limehaus Posted on 10/06/2016 12:31
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Had to make a decision on the referendum before the important Euro stuff starts tonight.

I am voting out based on one reason only. Market Harborough (I live on the border of Northamptonshire / Leicestershire). The high street is a shining example of the benefits of devolution and independence. A real throw-back town that is thoroughly enjoyable to be in and booze in. Its modernisation has always considered socialist values and as a result it hasn’t been blown away by capitalism in the same way many of our quaint & beautiful towns have been.

I don't buy that we will suffer economically if we leave. Norway & Switzerland aren't doing too badly. ‪#‎VoteLeave‬
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Rainham_Gill Posted on 10/06/2016 13:25
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When you say Norway and Switzerland aren't doing too badly, what you you mean exactly?

Do you mean they are doing ok, not bad, but not brilliant, just ok? Or do you mean that they are Europe's leading economic powerhouses? Because that's a new one on me.

Before you paint Switzerland and Norway as these EU-free utopias, maybe you should consider something that really matters - The price of a pint:

Switzerland: £4.56
Norway: £7.00

Whether that's EU related or not I don't know, but if you know an EU country with beer more expensive than Norway then let me know.

Wetherspoons are backing a Brexit, I hope their customers are aware that they may be paying more for their drinks!

Link: How much landlord?!
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Limehaus Posted on 10/06/2016 13:34
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It's all relative - As those countries have by the far the best GDP per capita in Europe it's more akin to paying £1.50 per pint.
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 10/06/2016 13:37
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If you follow the Norwegian and Swiss models then it's the whole thing as regards free trade with the EU PLUS the free movement of labour.

The 'out' brigade are primarily Little Englanders with little or no knowledge of the EU other than some weird concept of us being overrun by Johnny Foreigner.

Farage's bold idea to have an Australian points system would bar the very people we're desperately sure of in this country, ie those at the lower end of the employment ladder, and this will hurt and get worse as the population ages. Over half or more of EU citizens coming here are graduates. and, therefore, wont work in care homes or as cleaners.
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Nobby66 Posted on 10/06/2016 14:18
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"The 'out' brigade are primarily Little Englanders with little or no knowledge of the EU other than some weird concept of us being overrun by Johnny Foreigner"

Nice to be put into a pigeon hole but at least I now know my place. Funny how the Remainers always seem to want to paint the Leavers as a group of uneducated racists, you didn't go to school with Dave did you?

Oh and Rainham, I will be basing my vote on a bit more than the price of a pint seeing as I don't drink [;)]
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BigGMan Posted on 10/06/2016 16:09
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On a par with Wayne's comment, Remainers must all be overly familiar with the feel of a pigs chops on their person back in their education (paid by parents) days...
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John_Knee Posted on 10/06/2016 16:37
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"Farage's bold idea to have an Australian points system would bar the very people we're desperately sure of in this country, ie those at the lower end of the employment ladder, and this will hurt and get worse as the population ages." "Over half or more of EU citizens coming here are graduates. and, therefore, wont work in care homes or as cleaners."

The whole principle of the points system is to let in people who have the skills that the country needs and block those who have skills that we have plenty of people capable of doing already here. Why do you think Farage et all would deliberate block the skills we need??

"Over half or more of EU citizens coming here are graduates. and, therefore, wont work in care homes or as cleaners."

Wow.... the average UK citizen must be sooooo educated that we have no unemployed, unskilled citizens who are capable of picking up a mop and bucket and cleaning the floor.

I'd point out where you are wrong in relation to the aging population point but you'd probably ignore it....
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Nobby66 Posted on 10/06/2016 16:39
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I would never stereotype in such a way [;)]

I of course am a fat, shaven headed ringer for Al Murray who hates the Germans [;)]
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OldRoffa Posted on 10/06/2016 16:43
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(alleged) "misleading statements"

1. "UK's EU contribution where some stick to the gross"

The "bill" for UK's membership is about £ 20 billion.
As I've posted before, I prefer the amount after Mrs Thatcher's rebate ("abatement") - approx. £16 billion (or £300 per week)


About £ 8 billion in grants are givne back - but EU officials decide how that is spent - so it is quite legitimate to quote the larger amount.
It is also reasonable to cite how many hospitals that money could build - as an EXAMPLE, for context.

(BTW, the Head of the WTO said last week that IF .... WTO Tariffs came in, the cost to the UK would cost the UK about £ 5 billion - which is why one or two Leavers had said , worst case scenario, we would still be better off out.

Of course with Germany selling us nearly £ 2 billion more per month than we buy from them, it makes no sense to introduce Tariffs.


2. "immigration especially"
Farage is not "wrong" to say "building a house every 4 minutes to house immigrants".
That's about 130,000 homes per year.
At 2.5 people per home that's over 320,000 people - which is nearly the amount of Net migration for the last 2 or 3 years.
(....and still doesn't catch up on a decade of increased migration)

Most people believe that the numbers must come down - so we can catch up on building homes, schools etc - and at the moment the ONLY group that could be restricted is RoW migration - but as we want Commonwealth health workers and IT specialists, it's not going to be zero.

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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 10/06/2016 21:24
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Talking bollux
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haberdasher Posted on 11/06/2016 00:58
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.

Link: Stuff
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Roger_Mellie Posted on 11/06/2016 05:43
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"Englanders with little or no knowledge of the EU other than some weird concept of us being overrun by Johnny Foreigner."

Exactly the sort of arrogant argument that is trotted out by the smug know it alls.

Someone who rubbish everyone else's views in favour of their own is someone not to be trusted.

I'm voting leave as is pretty much everyone else I know. I never wanted to join in the first place.
T
We will still be ruled by a bunch of self interested liars. But at least they will be our liars. 😄
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Razorpound Posted on 11/06/2016 06:05
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Dyson:
'The billionaire entrepreneur condemned Remain campaign claims that British exports would fall in the aftermath of a vote to quit the union as “absolute cobblers” – and said David Cameron and George Osborne are “fundamentally wrong” on Europe.

He said: “When the Remain campaign tells us no one will trade with us if we leave the EU, sorry, it’s absolute cobblers. Our trade imbalance with Europe is running at nine billion a month and rising. If this trend continues, that is £100bn a year."

Also, it appears like Brexit have missed out on the Queen's Birthday honours! Talking of which, what has Rod Stewart really done to be a knight of the realm? Ant and Dec O.B.E. ffs!
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jokerman Posted on 11/06/2016 06:35
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Remain will win. Some clever chap in the Telegraph sketched out how all was leading towards the return of Tony Blair leading the sensible bits of the Tories, Labour and any other centrists.
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albo Posted on 11/06/2016 08:12
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After watching farage brilliantly handling Andrew Neil last night , for the first time I think leave will win. He is one of the few genuine experts in his field and pretty much everything he said made sense. Neil tried to get him off track a few times but he stuck to his message. So so much better than Benn and Osborn.
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Gills1958 Posted on 11/06/2016 12:28
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I'm now hearing Tories displaying concern about wages of the indigenous working class population being suppressed by Johnny Foreigner. So sick I couldn't even laugh at such preposterous faux concern.

People swept up by the Brexit bullsh#t are in for a massive disappointment if we vote out. It sure aint going to see massive house building and investment in the NHS.

Brexit = deluded and naive.

As a dinosaur leftie I used to think like Tony Benn, go for an independent socialist "heaven", but there is no chance of that. Leave or stay we are tied into the modern world, like it or not. Brexit are trying to go back to the 19th century.

BTW - a superb lie by the likes of Farage that the economists wanted us to join the Euro. No, the vast majority didn't, which is one of the reasons we haven't joined. I'll credit Brexit with a Goebbels type misinformation campaign that seems to have worked very well. I even believed Farage until I checked. They want us to ignore "experts" and go for Mystic Meg - quite worrying.
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albo Posted on 11/06/2016 13:43
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Your opinion does not make you correct mate. It is simply your view on a situation. Others beg to differ. As surprised as you guys are about how anyone could ever considering voting to leave, I'm just as amazed that anyone could consider voting to stay. I think staying in the European union in its current form is the road to ruin, and they ain't for changing. Roll on 23 rd [^]
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Rainham_Gill Posted on 11/06/2016 14:34
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"We will still be ruled by a bunch of self interested liars. But at least they will be our liars."

This is the kind of comment that might be made in jest but actually reveals something about someone's personal prejudices.

So according to Roger, British liars are better than foreign liars. The fact that they are liars doesn't bother you, the fact that they are foreign does.

Can you perhaps understand why Brexiteers are often accused of being racist? Would you like to modify or withdraw that statement?
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wxgill Posted on 11/06/2016 15:00
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I think old roffa summarized rather well.

Housing is an major issue as we cannot even house "our own" let alone the EU contingent. If we could build all these needed houses who would pay for them? The EU?

The other factor is most British who go abroad are self-supporting so there is no need for state hand-outs from other EU countries. A lot of migrants need housing that they cannot buy as they have no money.

Do EU countries have a lot more social housing than us? How do they manage to house their people?

The EU needs major change and democracy when "call me dave" came back from Brussels with little / no real change (the benefits changes are also temporary BTW - IDS said this on Thursday when i met him at Dover Town Hall) that made my mind up.

I do not consider myself European and never have done. I am British.

I've already used my postal ballot and OUT is the way.
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jokerman Posted on 11/06/2016 15:16
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RG I don't think you have to see the claim in racist terms. Our liars might have a bit more sympathy with our concerns in say cultural matters, but the weight of the claim is in saying our liars might be and might feel more accountable to us than distant liars from far away countries of which we know little. No need for that to be walked back.

Read Farage's vision in the DT the other day -he didn't have one, merely his talking points.
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Roger_Mellie Posted on 11/06/2016 15:58
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Jesus Rainham it was a joke. Maybe I need to put a smiley for the not so bright.

Accusing those in favour of leaving of racist is a lazy argument for those that can't think of anything else.
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OldRoffa Posted on 12/06/2016 00:07
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"Can you perhaps understand why Brexiteers are often accused of being racist?"

If one can't win a debate with reason play the "racist" card and watch them run away.
Except they've learnt to argue back.

"At least they are our liars / scumbags / scoundrels" means that we can unlect them. Nothing else.

Now please can people stop shouting "racist" at every turn.
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Limehaus Posted on 12/06/2016 08:34
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Looks like people are starting to waken up as Brexit takes the lead in the polls for the first time [^]
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ThreeSixes Posted on 12/06/2016 09:05
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Concerns about being overrun by Johnny Foreigner? Is it 1980? We will have an Islamic state in the Uk in 40 years, it's rather too late for questions like that. We might as well make the best of it til that comes.

Not sure how coming out of EU benefits immigration as Aghanistan, Syria, Bangladesh and Pakistan are not in the EU? All an out vote means is that Irish, Poles and French will be replaced by people with different moral code to ourselves ( if they have one).
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 12/06/2016 09:19
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WX - what evidence do you have that EU immigrants rely on UK hand-outs?
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albo Posted on 12/06/2016 09:25
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All petty differences aside, the real story coming out in all this is how the chattering class is failing to get their argument across despite enormous resources being thrown at it. An out vote could shake up the world. Just maybe the people have woken up at last [^]
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 12/06/2016 09:31
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Albo, your argument for OUT seems to turn on immigration but what if a recession slows down the economy and your business suffers.
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albo Posted on 12/06/2016 09:51
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I've been through numerous recessions. You just ride them out. Recession is inevitable in a capitalist system.
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wxgill Posted on 12/06/2016 12:03
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I find it strange you read people's posts on here and just ignore anything you don't like the sound of.

The points i made on housing you have just ignored bar a comment you made about eu immigrants getting housing here.

What about the fact we cannot build enough housing for the indigenous population?

Do you know of uk citizens going to the EU looking for affordable housing (does it even exist)?
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 12/06/2016 12:16
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It does indeed WX. In Europe, it is very common to have safe, affordable, long-term and controlled rented accommodation as we used to have before Mrs T put and end to it by the right to buy schemes.

When I was looking for accommodation in Milan, I had to turn down many flats because they only wanted long-term tenants.
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Gills-61 Posted on 12/06/2016 12:26
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A lot of people are saying their head says remain and their heart says leave. I believe the head should be saying leave as there are more actual facts on the Bexit side rather than forecasting what may happen on the other. There is a lot of rubbish being spouted by both sides but there are some FACTS. For example: 333,000 migrants net, over 600,000 gross (if you think we can control our borders while remaining vote remain); if you want our courts to be overuled by the European Court then vote remain; if you want our laws to be made by the European Commision (the argument is that if we are in we can have a say but we didn't vote for these commisioners, we can't vote them out and we are one vote out of 28 and we are a minority in the eu parliament) then vote remain; if you want to pay £10 billion a year to be a member but be penalised with tariffs for trading with the world (this is one argument that has pluses and minuses), I don't believe we will be able to trade with the eu without some form contribution but not on the Norway arrangement with a population of 5m as against a market in the UK of 65m. Let's be brave, Independence Day 23rd June.
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llamedos Posted on 12/06/2016 12:45
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I can imagine a lot of people will be influenced by the sight of English supporters being attacked by Johnny Foreigner , than such unimportant things as the economy. The sooner we get away from "those types " the better, they all hate us. Already heard it twice this morning.
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LSB2 Posted on 12/06/2016 12:49
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Proves it with Eurovision too!
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Skoolboy_error Posted on 12/06/2016 12:56
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What Wayne and the sneering political elite do not understand is that if you ignore peoples concerns, then the people will turn to alternatives. In America it is Trump, in France Le Penn and Germany the ADP. How often do you hear our mainstream politicians say "I understand peoples concerns about immigration, but....." and then proceed to move on to something else without offering any solution.
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 12/06/2016 15:47
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Gills-61 Laws are NOT made by the European Commission; so, while you believe cr@p like that then go ahead.
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 12/06/2016 16:00
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Another Error Skoolboy. My decision is based on my experience of life in general and how good the EU in its various stages has been for the UK. People like you will pounce on soundbites from the antis as though they mean something. When I hear politicians talk of giving the EU contribution to the NHS, to reduce fuel prices and build homes/schools when the very people saying it want to destroy the NHS given (a) you have to wonder if they're sincere and (b) how far can you actually spread a relatively small amount of money in general GDP terms?
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Roger_Mellie Posted on 12/06/2016 19:51
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I don't believe for a moment the money saved by exiting the EU will be spent on the health service.

How could it? Those in control will still be the tories. They are busy trying to destroy it, so it can be privatised. Hardly likely to chuck more money at it are they? Dodgy Dave will be gone very soon regardless of the result. He will be replaced by a carbon copy, whoever that will be. Nothing will change.

Remain are running scared. However the level of bullXXXXXX from both sides is unbelievable.

You should stop assuming that everyone that disagrees with you are ignorant lazy racists for starters. That sort of argument only pushes people towards leave.

No-one I know voted Tory at the last election. But at least we got to choose. With the EU there is no choice. They are unelected.

I actually believe leave is going to win. Pretty much everyone I know is going to vote leave. As regards expert economists opinions, how impartial are they?
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Wayne_Kerr Posted on 12/06/2016 20:20
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Who is unelected in the EU. There is more democracy in the EU than the UK. A minority voted for Dave and no-one voted for the house of lords. In Europe, the Commission proposes laws and they are passed by the EU parliament and Council of Ministers both elected bodies. OK, we might not win all votes but at least in the council of Ministers we have a chance to modify laws even to our advantage quite often. So, there is choice but I didn't expect you to go on about the 'unelected'.
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Gills-61 Posted on 12/06/2016 20:35
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Wayne_Kerr

The European Commission (who we didn't vote for) come up with the laws and put them forward to be debated by the European Parliament of which 90% of its members we didn't vote for. They can reject or amend. The European Council have the final decision on whether or not the proposal becomes law.

So the European Commission is the main player who decide which laws are put forward. So my initial statement is perfectly reasonable.

You haven't disputed my other staements so I take it you are in agreement. So vote leave on the 23rd.
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Roger_Mellie Posted on 12/06/2016 23:19
After watching Question Time, I'm convinced that very few...

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What Gills-61 said.

Vote leave.
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