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BillyBill Posted on 19/06/2017 18:39
Panorama GrenFell Tonight
 
 
Just heard a summary on 5live if they have the evidence to back up the claims that numerous warnings were given to ministers then it's an absolute outrage . Individuals will no doubt hide behind legal protection to avoid being in the dock like those in the real world will hopefully have to face.

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Stephenw167 Posted on 19/06/2017 18:41

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Will watch
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coluka Posted on 19/06/2017 19:21

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
You would think a few will be up for corporate manslaughter in the near future
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Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 19/06/2017 19:29

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
So much for the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
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Northoftheriver Posted on 19/06/2017 19:34
Edited On: 19/06/2017 19:37
Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
The problem would be if, and I'm not saying they have, but if as they claim, everything was done to the relevant codes and standards with no shortcuts or scrimping on materials., then who do you blame. Surely it would then come down to a case of the rules not keeping pace with the technology and who do you blame then? You can only go back as far as the last time the rules were updated, but coming forward from there, who would be to blame for not keeping those rules and standards constantly up to date.

All I'm saying is it could prove impossibly difficult to find people to hold responsible for the failures that caused this tragedy.
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Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 19/06/2017 19:41

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Because under CDM Regulations the designers is deemed guilty unless they can prove otherwise.

They'll start by looking at the drawings and specification for the job. If someone changed something to a cheaper/inferior material to save money they become the designer.
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Northoftheriver Posted on 19/06/2017 19:43
Edited On: 19/06/2017 19:44
Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
That's what I'm saying, They were insisting that the materials they used were up to spec. What if they can prove they were and that it turns out that they were approved for use in this country, even if in hindsight they shouldn't have been.
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BillyBill Posted on 19/06/2017 20:26

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Think the programme is going to be about general warnings that government ministers were given on high rise fire risks and that they chose to do nothing. My point is that if that is the case they will undoubtedly walk away with a damaged career but won't face corporate manslaught.
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truck Posted on 19/06/2017 20:39

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
North of the river, nailed it the cladding ingredients met specs at the time. These things are not retrospective otherwise we would all have to rewire our houses virtually evertime they were soldoing. Same for a lot of building regs
If the product used was wrongly specified OR does not meet the Stankards then we are in a different scenario. Although like dodgy double glazing companies they could go bust and so conveniently have no assets, and insurance may not be valid, what does need looking at is the management of the flats and how the management team is made up. There was a report in the paper really some mods that the tenants all rejected poss due to cost
Sadly I have looked at high rise buildings for years and thought the view would be good but sod living there in case if fire
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ThePrisoner Posted on 19/06/2017 20:50

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
As always in these cases I am sure deputy heads will roll [^]
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Stephenw167 Posted on 19/06/2017 20:58

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Theresa may has been appalling her head should roll

She just employed the former housing minister who sat on warning the regulations needed updating which would have prevented this


There have been so many warnings


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Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 19/06/2017 20:58

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
No one knows for sure, at present; whether the materials specified were used or indeed met the requirements.

I know when I specify something the estimators/qs's can accept a cheaper "similar" product that in reality isn't similar or of the standard required. I might find out until it's too late. The site might then order something else as they under priced the job to win it.
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Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 19/06/2017 21:01

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
I think the single biggest issue around this disaster is that public housing, like public transport and public utilities should he purely ran on a not for profit basis.
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POKERTIME55 Posted on 19/06/2017 21:04
Edited On: 19/06/2017 21:11
Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
One article I read said the cladding was not to be used on any building over 30 foot high.

Dont ask me for the link. I did read it.

Link: edit .. link here
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BillyBill Posted on 19/06/2017 21:05

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
The cladding, insulation and fitting questions will all be answered in due course and if there is negligence you can guarantee the government will have the "independent " CPS all over it.

What is equally important in getting proper justice is making sure that, if as seems to be the case, there was warning from building experts, fire service and others, those who delayed action on these warnings explain why.
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1finny Posted on 19/06/2017 21:07

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
From the program tonight it appears the cladding is still allowed.
That maybe because the inquiry in 2013 is still to produce findings.
What can not be denied is the appalling lack of support from the council and government afterwards.
You can't help thinking that the guy who said '
if we were rich people we would have had help within half an hour'..... has a point. [xx(]
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bear66 Posted on 19/06/2017 21:08

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
"So much for the concept of innocent until proven guilty."

No one has been charged.
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Harbottle Posted on 19/06/2017 21:08

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
It will take years of buck passing before any charges are brought I would think.
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bear66 Posted on 19/06/2017 21:09

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
"From the program tonight it appears the cladding is still allowed."

Hammond said no, then it was moderated to say only buildings less than 18m high. Is this not the case?
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POKERTIME55 Posted on 19/06/2017 21:12

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
yes

Link: 40 ft
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xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 19/06/2017 21:19

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Im sure the enquiry will make it a priority to trawl the various forums that are home to many legal and construction experts so i am sure they will get to the bottom of all this...

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Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 19/06/2017 21:40

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Better to be an "expert" than know nothing. I don't think anyone has really pointed fingers merely pointed out what may have happened, I'm not a expert on building regs but know the basics of CDM.
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Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 19/06/2017 21:40

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
There was a proviso over the height, which I believe stated the cladding was permitted if there were fire breaks.
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Support_Your_Local_Team Posted on 19/06/2017 21:46

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
One really poignant moment for me was the footage from inside the fire engine when they were travelling to the tower to support.

As they turned the corner, and the full tower of flames came into view for the first time, there was a stunned silence and we heard

"....what is that? What the XXXXXX is that? How is that even possible?"

It seemed clear then they knew they had no chance of defeating the fire and that there'd be so many deaths. [xx(]
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heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 19/06/2017 22:41

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
The CDM regs only will cover the work on site, health and safety of the construction etc.

I looked through the Building Regs part B and the item covering flame spread for external materials......not straightforward. ALL buildings over 18m have to have the cladding of LIMITED combustability and comply with various BS or EN codes. The cladding manufacturer was (if the one that's reported is correct) is French and have other standards. There are 4? different variants of the cladding product, with 2 specifically recommended for use on all high rise and public buildings, with a Class A1 non combustible core. But this wasn't used and a cheaper alternative was.

Massive questions as to the inside - fire doors, compartmentation, fire alarms etc.

Then the evacuation instructions....

It's a complete mess, however were any laws broken?
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Archie_Stephens Posted on 20/06/2017 00:34
Edited On: 20/06/2017 00:38
Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Heaon is correct in my opinion - nothing to do with CDM whatsoever. They don't cover Part B/fire safety, they are more to do with employing safe methods of the construction process and general maintenance and use of the building afterwads.

Part B is a total nightmare to understand at times - I work in building regs design and most building inspectors we deal with, interpret parts of the regs differently to each other all the time.

First thing that I thought when I saw it last week, was inadequate or missing fire barriers behind the cladding.
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Archie_Stephens Posted on 20/06/2017 00:39

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
I saw also that Celotex have published a statement on their website, regarding the insulation used.

Link: www.celotex.co.uk/
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heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 20/06/2017 08:06

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
"Part B is a total nightmare to understand at times - I work in building regs design and most building inspectors we deal with, interpret parts of the regs differently to each other all the time.

First thing that I thought when I saw it last week, was inadequate or missing fire barriers behind the cladding."

[^][^][^]

Thought exactly the same, but a LOT more to it than first feared.

One issue I have found is that, due to government cuts in the public sector, having a sit down with the Building Control Officer or indeed Fire Officer pre-Building Regs submission has become harder to the point of at times being impossible.

Building Control only now carry out the statutory site visits which sadly would not have included the cladding area. All things covered up by the time they carried out a final inspection.
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spike11 Posted on 20/06/2017 08:33

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
CDM regulations do apply. The designers have a duty to undertake a design which eliminates any foreseeable risks.
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heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 20/06/2017 08:40

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
CDM applies to the designer (PD) during the construction and planning phases. So by fitting lightweight cladding he would eliminate a risk of, say, large PC Concrete panels.

The cladding aspect is covered under Building Regs Part B / British Standards (BS 476) EUro Standards (EN) etc.

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Bobby_Braithwaite Posted on 20/06/2017 13:34

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
HMB

I suggest you need some training on the latest CDM Regs and the one before.
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heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 20/06/2017 14:01

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
Unfortunately had plenty thanks 2007 and 2015[^]

However, please enlighten me as to the responsibility of either the Designer or the PD (depending on which regs were applicable for the contract) and how they knew that they were fixing potentially lethal combustible panels to the building.

Bearing in mind the building would have had to be signed of by Building Control and (assume) had approval by the Fire Officer also (nothing to do with CDM)

What is your point?[?]
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jiffy Posted on 20/06/2017 14:17

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
If you think about it then there would have been thousands of compensation claims once the dangers of using asbestos were found. We have never really found a safe useable material with the fire-resistance of asbestos.

Like anything new materials are deemed safe to use until something happens to prove otherwise.

Scientists are never thorough in their development of new materials and drugs - they never test them in all potential situations.
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go_nads Posted on 20/06/2017 14:23

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
They don't need to test them in all scenarios, surely just testing if they catch fire and spread is enough of a test.

If they do, they shouldn't be used to surround buildings that are very tall, with lots of people living in them, many asleep, with very limited avenues of escape.

XXXXXX hell, straw bales are cheap and are good at insulating, but we don't clad tower blocks in the stuff.
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truck Posted on 20/06/2017 15:31

Panorama GrenFell Tonight

 
I saw that clip on BBC red button inside the fire engine, that brought it home they looked at the fir and knew something was seriously wrong in how the building has gone up.
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