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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 19/03/2017 13:23
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...
 
 
..and simply admit that the footballers we have at the club aren't good enough to compete in the PL.

We could have Conte or Guardiola in charge and play 4-4-2 or 3-5-1 or whatever, and we still wouldn't be good enough.
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borodrew Posted on 19/03/2017 13:29

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
When other systems have been tried and failed.

Even the extra attacking midfielder today wasn't tried for one of the centre mids.

So we can't say
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 13:31

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
They are good enough
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 19/03/2017 13:32

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Based on what evidence PAMH ?
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borodrew Posted on 19/03/2017 13:35

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Different system different result, a gosl
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 13:36

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
You telling me Joey Barton and Ashley Barnes would get in our team?
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Alvez_48 Posted on 19/03/2017 13:37

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Honestly couldn't have been proved wrong more quickly.
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 19/03/2017 13:40

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
How have I been proved wrong. One goal against an under strength Man U team doesn't suddenly prove me wrong.

I'd have Joey Barton as a player (ignoring his personality completely) over any of our midfielders certainly.

Too many of our players make the wrong choice time after time - a manager can't legislate for that.
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Doppelganger Posted on 19/03/2017 13:40

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
You can't polish a turd. Our players are not good enough.
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Emmersons_BrazillianDong Posted on 19/03/2017 13:48

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
As with everything in life boys it's not black and white. The answer is that both play a significant part and ultimately the management has been responsible for the players that we have.

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Alvez_48 Posted on 19/03/2017 13:56

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
No goals in 8 hours we go 442 play players in position and score within 5 mins... Sure its just the players you plonker lizards.
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Born_again_Freebird Posted on 19/03/2017 14:00
Edited On: 19/03/2017 14:04
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
We only scored because Man U were out on their feet an that lad made a complete hash of his clearance - we had a go when they sat back after the second which I knew would happen because they were knackered but it was just hoof an hope stuff
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allied_assault Posted on 19/03/2017 14:00

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I disagree
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 19/03/2017 14:01

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Lincoln City scored against Burnley (a mid table PL side) does that mean that their players are good enough to compete in the PL for a season ?

We looked better playing 4-4-2 no doubt, but it doesn't mean our players are good enough to compete over a season in the PL. We still make too many wrong decisions and look for the easy way out.

Try to post, and disagree with people, without resorting to personal insults, it's really not that hard.
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otto62 Posted on 19/03/2017 14:05

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
It was the sort of hoof ball you see in Sunday league football. Pack the box with a couple of big guys, with a couple of others hanging around on the off chance, then lump the ball in and hope it falls your way. It's rubbish football that you can play for the last 10 minutes when the opposition are sitting back. You can't play that for a full 90 minutes.
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BOROMAN28 Posted on 19/03/2017 14:10

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
We just played 20 minutes like that and had manure flapping.
What is wrong with actually playing to our strengths?
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 19/03/2017 14:11

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
It's not rubbish football at all. It's about scoring goals and it works.

Knocking it around aimlessly for 90 minutes is.

If you want to play like Barcelona you need the money to buy the best in the world.

We used the same tactics against Steau as we did in our best period today.

Man Utd used the same tactics when they beat us at Old Trafford.

Get the ball into the box and the opposition don't like it.
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JonSina Posted on 19/03/2017 14:14
Edited On: 19/03/2017 14:17
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Please explain how they were knackered?

Please please please!

A professional footballer who's whole life is keeping fit can't play for 90 minutes twice in a week? Really?

Never heard such a load of rubbish in my life

Aimed to born_again_freebird
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almeria2005 Posted on 19/03/2017 14:18

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
They made 7 changes from the last game,we have been playing without 3 of our best defender and nobody seem to think it matters
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richb Posted on 19/03/2017 14:20

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
They actually had 3 games this week (Monday-Thursday-Sunday) and yes playing Football for 90 minutes at the top level does take a toll on the body.

We were better late on because they were tired and they were happy to sit back. We'd get overran in midfield if we played that way from the off against other teams. If we're happy to lose the midfield battle and play incredibly direct we might pick up some points or we might end up taking a beating every week.

We don't have the players, it's as simple as that. It's the reason we have set up to play the way we have most of the season.
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Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 19/03/2017 14:20

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
So instead the played with a defence of seasoned internationals?
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WoodallServices Posted on 19/03/2017 14:29

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
We don't have the players. Our midfielders are all too slow and don't move the ball quick enough. For Uniteds second Clayton was moving half the speed without the ball as Lingeard was with it.
The only way to change that before the summer is to bring some youngsters in.
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American_Mary Posted on 19/03/2017 15:49

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I agree with Lizards, we don't have the quality to compete, for example our most creative player, Ramirez, has not done it at Premier League level at 3 clubs now.

How many of our starters today would be regulars in other Premier League teams ? How many would be regulars in a top ten side ?
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HolgateCorner Posted on 19/03/2017 15:54

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I also agree with the op, we have put a squad together on the cheap and it has failed.

I also could not see somebody like Steve Agnew being appointed manager at any decent premier league club.
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 15:55

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
If we get relegated the Valdes, Fabio, Chambers, Gibson, Traore, Ramirez, Downing and Negredo could all leave and play in the PL next season. That's eight straight away without going into players who maybe good enough or be PL squad players.

The players are good enough, it's an excuse to say they're not.
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dooderooni Posted on 19/03/2017 16:01

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
We moved the ball fairly well early doors, but we didn't keep it up. I thought they also decided to let Gibbo and Espinosa have the ball more as the game wore on and that allowed them to restrict the space in midfield and control things more.

If we're going to play Rudy then we need to practice crossing a hell of a lot more.
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sasboro1 Posted on 19/03/2017 16:07

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Most people underestimated the big gap between the 2 leagues. Defensively we have been ok but to you get £100m for a reason and that's to spend on attacking quality. Easier said than done. I think Gibson has been more cautious this time round with one eye on if they could do a job if we went back down. Maybe he had his fingers burnt last time when we were £85m in debt
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Indeedido Posted on 19/03/2017 18:18

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
When your squad gets out of the Championship on GD, it is clear you need to buy real quality and some PL experience.
Gibson did not provide the funds and the money we spent last summer was pitiful.
The chance to strengthen was incompetently wasted again in January by Gibson and his lickspittles.

Of course our squad is not good enough, the OP is absolutely right.
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BoroFur Posted on 19/03/2017 18:23

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
We've been ok defensively simply because we play with 10 men behind the ball most games.
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Alvez_48 Posted on 19/03/2017 18:24

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Sure thing pal... Ask Burnley.
On paper we have a better squad than them. They have spent comparably to us and less than us last season yet have bested us twice.

Ask bournemouth... Its just nonsense to suggest we needed to spend more to survive.

You will try to do anything to absolve Karanka. To the point of suggesting he doesn't have any input on the players we buy.

Just face the facts... When we go down this season its due to how AK set us up its not fair and I wish it was different because I believed in him but he's just not a great manager.
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 18:36

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
When your manager has exhausted all of his options in terms of approach, shape, partnerships, tactics, etc. I don't think we have reached that point yet and I am hopeful that Steve Agnew can pull something out of the bag over the course of the next three or four games.
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 18:52

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
The types of players purchased were done in the main on the cheap, players whose clubs either wanted them moved on for financial reasons (Negredo, Barragan), had injuries and were free or low cost as a result and had questions to answer ( Fischer, Espinosa, Valdes), Were a project (Traore) Guzan was a free.

Fabio was a bargain price. De Roon was an over priced headless chicken (whoever scouted him and thought he was worth £12M wants shooting).

The scouting network is clearly poor and flawed. The decisions taken to go down this route were not Karankas, but the man at the top. He messed up just like we did in 2008/09 on recruitment and our scottish sourjon
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 18:58

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"Sure thing pal... Ask Burnley.
On paper we have a better squad than them. They have spent comparably to us and less than us last season yet have bested us twice.

Ask bournemouth... Its just nonsense to suggest we needed to spend more to survive."

Exactly.

Burnley came up with us and Bournemouth have many players who've came with them from a lower level or weren't proven PL players.

Karanka has spent enough money and brought in enough players over his time. The fact he discarded £20m worth of attacking players he bought and was playing Stuani wide left when Downing couldn't even get on the bench yet Downing comes in today, plays well and adds some good balance to the team tells you a lot about how Karanka wasn't getting the most out that squad.
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 19:04

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Pog, Karanka never bought them aaaagggghhhh. Gibson did It is his money and he has a veto. The only one at the club that does. I accept AK discarded players that he felt were not good enough. Still Rhodes has certainly sparked Sheff Weds promotion push ... not.

AK I also agree was not getting the best out of what he was given to coach, but what is the best part of a dog turd?

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sasboro1 Posted on 19/03/2017 19:05
Edited On: 19/03/2017 19:15
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Ask Bournemouth.. yes and ask hull and in recent seasons burnley and norwich..

We just didn't sign the quality needed to stay up.
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 19:12

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"Pog, Karanka never bought them aaaagggghhhh."

Course he didn't. It was Gill and Gibson signing them all[rle]
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 19:17

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
No it was Gill Orta et al, Ak obviously had his say and no doubt approved of most, clearly.

My point is that Gibson used his money, and he is part of the recruitment team himself. He has a veto,, surely you can understand that.

AK did not spend his money and therefore could not have bought them. He merely signed off. Signing off does not mean you always approve though as i am sure you well know. Majority and casting votes in a group usually apply in such circs when all involved agree the rules. Nowhere has Gill said AK wanted all the players that arrived, nowhere
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 19:22

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
The club built the team that won promotion then, surely, if that's your line of thought. Save for drilling a defence and making training more intense what did Karanka actually do?
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Indeedido Posted on 19/03/2017 19:25

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Pog you are incredibly dim if you think Gibson has allowed a budget for adequate recruitment.

Dyche has done an incredible job given the size of club and budget, but has still nett spent more than Boro this last year. (Defour, Hendrick, Westwood and Brady alone)
Both Watford and Bournemouth NETT spent £40m in their first season up to establish themselves; both before the spike in PL funds this season.

Karanka was no genius and made lots of mistakes, but you are so intent on blaming him for everything and to be proved right, you just can't smell the coffee.

Gibson has tried to stay up very much on the cheap.
Last time 2008-09 he couldn't afford to prop them up any more.
This time he didn't have to, he has just got things horribly wrong.
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 19:25

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"It must be stressed no player comes into this club that is not signed off by the manager,” said Gill.

“Yes, we are working to develop a system for the club but the ultimate aim is to find players for the gaffer to put the best possible team on the pitch - and he knows exactly what kind of players he wants.

“Aitor may say ‘here’s three or four players I like, put them through the process’ and that’s what we will do."

“We will compile data on them, their strengths, their weaknesses, and give him as much information as possible when he is weighing up his signings.

“We work together. We have regular recruitment meetings, we talk about the type of players the gaffer needs and together we put together a list of players who meet his criteria.

“Aitor has been here a while now and has more knowledge of the English game and obviously he knows the Spanish game really well too and he suggested a few players there and we have built up our knowledge on them.

“When he came he asked us to look at Abella, Nsue, Kike and others and scouting those players has helped us build up a far deeper knowledge of that league as a whole that may be useful in the future.

“But wherever we look, here or abroad, Aitor has profiles of the kind of players he likes, mentally and physically, and that outline helps us narrow our target lists down. We’ve got a framework we can work with because we have a very good idea of what he is looking for in each position.

“First and foremost we are looking for the very best footballers and those whose personality fits in with what we are doing. That’s what drives us on, to continually improve the team with players who are a good fit.”


Seems clear to me. If Karanka didn't want a player he didn't sign for MFC.
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 19:28

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Led the coaching team to his personal direction, day in day out including full matchday and game responsibilities as far as the first team is concerned.

He is a perfectionist and expects the same from his staff. Others he does not control, such as the physio dept who he criticised publicly for failing to keep him informed and updated on GF injury etc. He is Head Coach NOT Manager of the football club. Similar to how Newcastle had it until Benitez forced change and more power so he got things done his way and had his say
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 19:31

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Pog signed off read what i said, have you ever worked by committee. Many committee members sign off a policy, a purchase etc they dont always agree 100%. You seem to not want to accept that though, strange really that the language can be twisted dont you think. It is intended to make you think as you do without actually being that way
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HolgateCorner Posted on 19/03/2017 19:34

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Pog, I respect your posts but it is clear that recruitment is a team effort in my view.

Karankas title wasn't manager it was head coach which would suggest the idea is to have a club squad which the head coach has to mound into an effective unit.

I think it is a good debate as to whether or not he has got the best out of them this season but my view is that overall quality up front is lacking. I think it is also clear we were shopping at poundstretcher rather than Binns.
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chiz62 Posted on 19/03/2017 19:39

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
If it hadn't been for Valdes slip we would have won 1 nil playing 4-4-2
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 19:51

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
What you don't seem to understand coluka is that process will be exactly the same at just about every single football club. Managers are dispensable they're not going to just hand them blank cheque book to sign any Tom, D!ck or Harry they want. The manager will have targets he wants, the recruitment team will do due diligence to make sure the players is right for the club. Alteratively the manager will tell the recruitment team what attributes he's looking for and they will go out and find them and present their findings to the manager.

What they don't do is just go out and spend millions of pounds on players that the manager has said doesn't want, what would the point in that be?

The club have tried to put procedures in place to prevent another Strachan transfer spunk against the wall fest and people used it as an excuse for a one-trick pony manager to hide behind.
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HolgateCorner Posted on 19/03/2017 19:54

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I don't think Karanka is faultless but that squad is not good enough.
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 19/03/2017 19:54

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"If it hadn't been for Valdes slip we would have won 1 nil playing 4-4-2"

[rle]

You do realise football is a game of 90 minutes right ? The score whilst we're playing a particular system is immaterial.
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dooderooni Posted on 19/03/2017 19:59
Edited On: 19/03/2017 20:02
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
The sooner everyone stops trying to blame individuals and accepts that the club as a whole holds responsibility for this season then the better this place will be.

Prior to the start of the season everyone from Gibbo down will have been hoping that we could successfully make the step up.

Clearly, mistakes have been made, decisions have proven to be detrimental and performances of individuals have been under-par at times.

No one person is responsible for where we find ourselves, it's a collective failure, but find ourselves there we do. Take this "signing off" on transfers, it won't be that simple and there'll be a mass of people involved in doing deals that will affect the recruitment process. I could easily draw up a wishlist to spend the £100m PL windfall on, but I doubt that the squad I'd end up with would match that wishlist very much.

What is important now is that we learn from this season and try and change things for the better next season in all aspects of the club, regardless of which division we're plying our trade in.

If this season has made the club hierarchy realise that they might need to temper their ambitions then we'll have to accept that until things change off the field.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that winning promotion was more imperative than staying up this season. We simply don't know the finances of the club and relegation might not be as much as blow for the club as it is for the supporters.

Of course, there is a distinct possibility we could just be a complete shambles from top to bottom, but I think we're just one of those promoted teams that inevitably gets relegated in their first season back in the PL after an extended absence.
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Emmersons_BrazillianDong Posted on 19/03/2017 20:00

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Could you tell us who he didn't sign please?

Because there's a lot of XXXXXX in there. Did he sign the good and Gibson the bad?
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 20:02

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Normally the way it goes Emmerson

Good Signings = Karanka
Bad Signings = Gibson/Gill
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 20:16

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
No of course not

What do people not understand about committees and signing off. I said he no doubt agreed with many but not all

See Rhodes as an example. See Alves as the same example under Southgate. If you do things by committee you agree to sign off even if you dont support everything decided.
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Alvez_48 Posted on 19/03/2017 20:21

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Whilst in willing to accept our recruitment was not great... However to suggest we don't have the players to take the game to teams in an effort to win and should accept scoring no goals and defending 85 minutes a game is just ludicrous!

Its funny how much the AK defenders are willing to blame the club for but not let AK take his large part of it.
Also willing to whinge and moan about today's result forgetting that we would have lost to nothing under Karanka.
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 19/03/2017 20:23

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"However to suggest we don't have the players to take the game to teams in an effort to win and should accept scoring no goals and defending 85 minutes a game is just ludicrous!"

We have the players to take the game to teams and they have the desire to win. Sadly they by and large don't have the skills to actually follow through with it.

Obviously as EBD said it's not black and white, but did people really expect a new manager or new system to suddenly have us playing like Real Madrid ?
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 20:24

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Alves, I think i just said he played his part and is in part to blame but not all to blame. [rle]
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Borocelt Posted on 19/03/2017 20:25

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
You have to understand that admitting the platers may be to blame would also undermine the pathetic whinging the Karanka out brigade have done for months, so it will be hard for them.

We might have the quality to stay in the division, but it will be close.
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 20:25

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
If AK hasn't been signing anyone then I hope he gave his medal from last season's promotion to Gary Gill.
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 20:28

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Viv, this is not like you, have you read what i said.

It is a committee that decide and agree, AK was one voice, an important voice, but still one voice, Gibson is the only one with a veto, its his money. Committees all sign off but not all agree with a decision. Thats life.

AK will have got his way more often than not, but not always as i say
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 20:42

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
But I don't really recall Gary Gill and Steve Gibson et al getting the praise for the recruitment prior to this season. This is what irks because Karanka is able to have it both ways. He built the promotion-winning team but not the team sitting in 19th place in the Premier League. I have said loads of times that the recruitment could've been better but my main issues with Karanka weren't actually the signings. It was his approach, the style of football, his subs, his volatility, his bullsh*t in the press conferences. It was tiring.

People are hammering Gill, Gibson and Bausor now but they weren't showering them with praise when Boro went up or got to Wembley the season before. Karanka was a key component of the recruitment staff. Why would the club sign players he didn't want? The more people bang on about the recruitment side of things, the more I think Karanka agreed to signing some of these players because he knew he'd barely use them and would then have a convenient excuse to hide behind should things go tits up.
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 20:47
Edited On: 19/03/2017 20:48
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Managers who copy Jose Mourinho to the letter are always planning and plotting their next move. AK has done well to escape without a relegation on his CV, IMO, and the chairman has treated him well by saying it was mutual consent. Karanka deserved that for doing so well to get us up from the lower-reaches of the second division and into the Premier League. I just think that his style of management, the Mourinho-esque bullsh*t bandwagon of cynical, uber-defensive football belongs to an era that has just about ended and that the Boro needed a fresh start.
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 20:56

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"But I don't really recall Gary Gill and Steve Gibson et al getting the praise for the recruitment prior to this season. This is what irks because Karanka is able to have it both ways. He built the promotion-winning team but not the team sitting in 19th place in the Premier League."

Nail. Head.
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hopesoboro Posted on 19/03/2017 20:59

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Karankas gone for Cliffs sake!
Agnew I now the gaffer.Give him some backing.We didn't disgrace ourselves today. We've got some hope IMO.
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Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/03/2017 21:00

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
That's the thing, Mourinho's style of management has had its day. He can just about get away with it with the amount of silverwear he's won over the years but for someone like Karanka who's done pretty much nothing in management to go on like that is ridiculous.

He'd do better trying to emulate Klopp or Pochettino when it comes to how to play the game and conduct yourself.
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dooderooni Posted on 19/03/2017 21:01

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
viv, I think you need to read back some of the stuff you're posting because you're developing a bit of a cynical/bitter tinge and I'd always had you down as one of the more eloquent, reasonable and sensible posters. Not saying we have to agree on everything of course.

Anyway, regarding your reference to an end of an era of defensive football, I think once Wenger goes then we'll also see far more mid-season sackings due in part to the money at stake and the need for instant results. Managers who get two or three seasons will become the exception to the rule I think and the measure of "failure" will be raised yet again. Football goes in cycles and you'll always see teams trying to emulate others.
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 21:02

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Viv I could argue the same in reverse re AK getting all the blame and have done so to death

AK should not get all the praise for the signings in the promotion team. Not all were great. I criticised some of them as being poor. I was one of the few who were critical that we scraped up without creativity in the squad. Ramirez was the difference. I have harped on about it for most of his tenure. It was a blind spot clearly and still is within the club.

AK was not responsible solely for getting us up like he is not solely responsible for our current position. I for one and there are others too who say the same.

It is a myth that AK defenders think he is great and the best thing since slced bread. I criticised him loads of times. See last years posts around Feb onwards as an example.

I defend him because many blame him solely and my position is then taken out of context in the minutiae of on going debate and gets forgotten as people hone in on specifics they dont agree on
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 21:06

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I have become a bit more cynical about Karanka, dood, I admit that but would cushion it by saying much of it stems from the way the Karanka tenure played out. I think we had become excruciating to watch - the games at Palace and Stoke were absolutely shocking - and my views changed in accordance with the football we were seeing and the way the manager spoke in public. By the end I was completely tired of him, TBH.

Hopefully Agnew can tweak some stuff and get the team going for the next three games.
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 21:10

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Well actually when you look at it and strip the emotion out of it, you can say Karanka has done extremely well to stay in his first job, in a foreign country, for over three years. It is highly unusual. Now he's gone I'll forget this season and remember his 2014/15 team, which, IMO, was the best of his time at Boro. It was tight at the back but not so extreme, and had some flair in it.
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dooderooni Posted on 19/03/2017 21:25

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Well we agree on that last bit at least viv.

For me, the players let everyone down badly in those games. As for Aitor's behaviour, I'm prepared to think that he was genuinely trying anything and everything to turn things around and unfortunately the more he tried the worse it was getting for him. Yes it was painful to watch, but there were a whole lot of factors at play and pressure does strange things to everyone in football, from the top to the bottom.

Unlike some on here, I can't bring myself to dislike him in the least because although he may not see the game in the exact same way I do, I have the utmost respect for his methods as being capable of getting results in the right circumstances.

I stopped trying to superimpose my footballing philosophies on the Boro performances a long time ago because in my mind there is no way I can measure the effectiveness of my ideas in the real world. I'd prefer to see players taking risks in the final third and moving the ball quickly for example, but if I judged a Karanka side by how close they came to my way of thinking then I'd tear my hair out [:D] Stuani's goal against WHU is the closest we've come to my ideals this season.
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Emmersons_BrazillianDong Posted on 19/03/2017 21:41

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Pressure does do strange things to people. I've said this before that is understandable that he couldn't handle the pressure. It was his first job and he had to take responsibility for the team.

Buthis constant falling out with players and other staff demonstrate personality traits that won't get him very far after making an impact.

I wish the guy well but I wish we got rid of him before Christmas to give us the best chance possible.
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dooderooni Posted on 19/03/2017 21:52

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
That might become his niche EBD, come in and arrest a slide and then get out before his methods start to lose their effectiveness. I do think he'll manage at a high level again and if he gets the right group of players to work with that he could be more expansive. He might need to inherit a potentially good but somewhat underperforming side to do that though.
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coluka Posted on 19/03/2017 23:21

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Viv, disappointed you have not replied to my comments when you felt it necessarry to pull me on my thoughts [|)]
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 19/03/2017 23:54
Edited On: 19/03/2017 23:58
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Which comments, col?

The blind spot in terms of creativity is interesting because I would personally say that that is more Karanka's issue. Even if we said Karanka doesn't have full control of recruitment, that the club sign players he may not really want, the list of attacking players on the books under him is quite something. It is a mixed bag in terms of styles and skill-sets but the team have almost always played in the same manner, regardless of who was picked.

Tomlin, Adomah, Kike, Reach, Downing, Stuani, Fabbrini, Nugent, Vossen, Bamford, Negredo, Ramirez, Traore, Rhodes, Fischer, Gestede, Wildschut... there are no world beaters on that list but we have played in almost exactly the same fashion regardless, to the point where it felt like Boro played in almost exactly the same way for over three years under AK, which suggests, to my mind at least, that it was him who was drilling them to do it and cementing his philosophy. It was cautious, risk-averse football taken to extremes by the fag-end of his time and it wasn't working.

The club have signed some decent attacking players. No world beaters, as I say, but some decent ones. We were less extreme in the Championship but the framework, the mentality, was exactly the same, regardless of opposition or whether we were home or away. I personally don't believe that all of those players are as bad as many would have us believe. People saying the attacking players aren't good enough so that's why he set up shop... well he played liked that last season, too, despite having players who were definitely good enough.

He isn't solely responsible for all of the issues Boro have at the moment, of course he isn't. But he has to take responsibility for the team and what goes on on the field. And it was poor, and getting worse. He had to go, IMO.

One extra point - it is interesting reading all the views on Karanka, the mixed opinions, because people genuinely don't know what to believe with him. I think he tried to play the media to the point where he made so many excuses, picked so many fights unnecessarily and tried to play 'mind games' so often over the past few months that nobody is quite sure what the truth of his tenure is, or what it even looks like. But if you go on what happens on the pitch then he was always in big trouble and did well to last as long as he did, all things considered.

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newyddion Posted on 20/03/2017 00:48

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Deulofeu
Bojan
Jese

or

Bamford
Ramirez
Downing
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scuzzmonster1 Posted on 20/03/2017 07:02

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
'Now he's gone I'll forget this season and remember his 2014/15 team, which, IMO, was the best of his time at Boro. It was tight at the back but not so extreme, and had some flair in it.'

Yes, viv. Result against Norwich excepted, 2014/15 was a cracking season to follow Boro home and away. Possibly my *favourite* saeason, even.
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Indeedido Posted on 20/03/2017 09:07

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
This isn't hard.
1. We recruited ambitiously in the Championship and got enough quality to scrape out of the league. Hats off to the Club for recruitment.
2. We recruited on a shoestring for the Premier League and got woeful quality. We are therefore going down. No hats off to anybody for recruitment and particularly to Gibson the Emperor without Clothes.

Watford and Bournemouth both NETT spent over £40m in their first season up and that was before the big new TV deal we share in.
Gibson has appallingly handled this season.
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ExFootyLegs Posted on 20/03/2017 09:13

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
These players are good enough to keep us in this league.

Gibson has one noticeable weakness but it's stark in that choosing managers is not his forte

But appointing Agnew is worse than when he appointed Southgate
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Indeedido Posted on 20/03/2017 09:53

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
No Ex Footy Legs, Gibson has more than one Achille's Heel, its not just appointing managers.
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sasboro1 Posted on 20/03/2017 10:00

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
we did well to build a squad to get us out of the championship. dont underestimate how difficult that is. have a look athet likes of forest, derby,norwich, birmingham who seem to find it tough.

but after promotion, we underestimated how tough a step up it is. we even had some on here saying we would be midtable and the premier league is rubbush. our creative players are just not good enough.

but on the postive side we must now be in a very strong position financially to make a go of the championship with a couple of additions. we wont have any financial issues hanging over the club or squad next season
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 20/03/2017 10:16
Edited On: 20/03/2017 10:23
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Bournemouth spent good money on Glenn Murray, Lewis Grabban, Max Gradel, Tyrone Mings, Lee Tomlin and Benik Afobe after they'd gone up. If Boro had spent that amount of money on that collection of players people would've been moaning their heads off on here.

Bournemouth's most-used eleven from last season was Boruc, Smith, Cook, Francis, Daniels, Ritchie, Gosling, Surman, Pugh, Arter, King.

Only Josh King was signed after they won promotion, and several of that team came up with them from League One.

Watford spent good money but have the lure of London. If Boro had gone up at their expense in 2014/15 and then tried to buy Etienne Capoue from Tottenham do you think we'd have stood any real chance of getting him?

Their most-used eleven last season - Gomes, Nyom, Cathcart, Britos, Ake, Abdi, Watson, Capoue, Jurado, Deeney, Ighalo.

Nyom came from Udinese for an undisclosed fee. That is the luxury of having an owner who also owns two other clubs, who can ferry players about between those clubs for undisclosed fees and nobody thinks anything of it. They paid for Jurado, who has now gone back to Spain to play for Espanyol after one season. Miguel Britos was free and Ake was on loan. They spent money but a lot of it wasn't on the pitch for much of the season. There are very, very few world beaters in either squad, both this season and last.

Maybe those two sides were better prepared for the Premier League than Boro were in terms of approach and team shape or style of play, or maybe they didn't sit on their hands for six months hoping something would come good despite all of the available evidence showing that that wasn't going to happen. As an outsider looking in, it felt like Watford were not afraid to use Deeney and Ighalo and play direct and long when they had to. They were a big, physical team. They still are. Bournemouth play a short-passing game that was implemented over four or five years or so. They both had clearly defined ways of playing whereas I don't think Boro did, or if we did it was discarded fairly early on in the season.
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Indeedido Posted on 20/03/2017 10:31

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Viv you are better than this, as Coluka posted earlier.

Bournemouth and Watford both spent vastly more and both survived and will survive again. QED.
Employ good people and provide them with the required resources.

Please don't tell me we can't compete with Watford and Bournemouth
Burnley have also outspent us.

I get that you really turned on Karanaka - I think he had to go in the end, but please don't tell me he had the backing that Howe et all had.
Our recruitment has been pitiful because Gibson has enabled a pitiful budget.
He won't pay for his decisions like he did post the last relegation in 2008-09.
He will have a £100m surplus to insulate him.
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 20/03/2017 10:55

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I'm not saying that he had the backing in terms of being given 40m to spend on players but as I said above, a lot of what those two clubs spent was on players who weren't regular starters. I think Watford clearly benefitted from their arrangement with the Pozzo family in that they ferried a lot players between Watford, Granada and Udinese both in the Championship and then the top flight.

Obbi Oulare - reported fee of 6m, made three appearances and is now on loan at Willem II.
Steve Berghuis - 4.5m, 9 appearances and 0 goals and now on loan at Feyenoord.
Matej Vydra - reported fee of 9m, 1 appearance before being loaned out to Reading and then sold to Derby for 8m.
Adalberto Penaranda - reported fee of 4m, immediately loaned out to Granada, then Udinese and now at Malaga on loan.
Adlene Guedioura - reported fee of 3m, 18 appearances(3 starts), now at Boro.

That's a lot of money on players who didn't play much football for them. I haven't been through their whole list of signings either.

Bournemouth spent about 15m on Mings and Gradel but they both did their cruciate ligaments really early on. Murray was around 5m but barely played. Grabban was around 7m but barely played and was then sold.

They may have signed a lot of players at great expense but the teams they actually ended up relying on to stay up consisted, in the main, of players who had taken them up the year before. Again, I'm not saying that they weren't well backed in the transfer market. I'm saying that maybe their promotion-winning teams, or the core of those sides or style of play etc, was more suited to Premier League football than Boro's was. I don't know. The only figures I can find for wages at both clubs last season has Bournemouth at around 25m and Watford around 29m. Boro are around 34m this season, equal with Bournemouth and around 12m behind Watford's current squad.
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 20/03/2017 11:05

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
You would also add in the money we spent in the Championship, some of which was surely invested in terms of making sure the team was not just ready for promotion but also to stay in the division above.

The club had already spent 11m on Rhodes, 7m on Downing, 4m on Nugent(fees after promotion), 3m on De Pena, 3.5m on Stuani before spending again this summer. Did the chairman gamble on the club going up and spend some of the money that a promotion would bring? There was no way our income at that time - which presumably consisted of season tickets, sponsorship and advertising revenue - would've covered those sorts of fees and wages, surely. Maybe Steve Gibson had already spent some of the PL TV money in an effort to make sure we actually made it up into the top flight.
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sasboro1 Posted on 20/03/2017 11:06

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
you can look at some of the recently promoted teams who managed to stay up that first season then bring in more quality to compete. but there are also other teams who went straight back down.

one team might have had the quality required at that time to make the step up. I dont think we did like many others dont. we built a squad to get us out of the championship. but we needed to then spend on some creative quality to help us stay up. we lack pace and movement to worry teams. We are relying in traore too much as we have no other pace.hes nothing more than an impact player to bring on

2 points of note:-

1) you get £100m for a reason, every team gets that. its like your running costs.

2) bournemouth and watford used as examples who stayed up. so this leads to the question on our scouting network. is it working beyond championship level?who is in charge of it?
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coluka Posted on 20/03/2017 11:28

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Viv, Indeedido has acknowledged elsewhere that Gibson was reasonably entitled to replenish some of his funds invested previously.

The issue is that we have invested a paltry amount compared to virtually all our rivals this season it appears given the funding guaranteed through this league
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viv_andersons_nana Posted on 20/03/2017 12:36

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I'm not disagreeing completely, col, but just wondering whether what the club spent was actually paltry when last season's spending is also factored in.

I still think he was badly let down by Ramirez. I'm not sure whether the sale of Adomah was planned for. He should've been replaced by a senior player alongside Traore, instead of just being a straight swap with Traore. He has been let down by some of the players but I also think he failed to use his resources properly too many times, though accept that that is subjective and that others will feel differently.
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coluka Posted on 20/03/2017 12:56

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Thats fair enough Viv.

I agree about Ramirez and Albert too. You are right that he failed to use his playing resources properly too. Some team selections and substitutions especially were baffling at times
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Indeedido Posted on 20/03/2017 15:36

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Viv - the club spent what it had to in order to get out of a competitive Championship. We scraped up.

It was obvious that we needed to recruit quality, especially in the final third.
It was equally obvious to most that we didnt do it summer or January.

The net spend of us as a promoted club has been pitiful since May.

Karanka may well not have got the best out of his squad at the end, but I'm not sure there is that much more to get out of them in PL terms.
We are woefully short on quality.
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coluka Posted on 20/03/2017 15:38

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Excellently put Indeedido [^]
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Alvez_48 Posted on 20/03/2017 15:46

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Handily changed it into a discussion about transfers as opposed to.

19 goals in however many games. 10 games without a win

Lowest shots on target in the English football leagues.

Its all because we didn't spend enough. Laughable.
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newyddion Posted on 20/03/2017 15:47

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
-------------Valdes-------------
Fabio--Chambers--Gibson---Friend
Deulofeu--De Roon--Clayton--Jese
-------------Bojan--------------
------------Negredo-------------

ah well [cr]
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coluka Posted on 20/03/2017 15:56

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Alvez, you need the right quality of footballers with the right attributes to compete. We bought players recovering from injury or out of form in the main and pressed the hope for the best button. Nobody is saying AK didnt get things wrong or is blameless. He was partly to blame that is clear to all. Quality players cost serious money. We never bought enough. There is a correlation with spending and team quality
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Cruk Posted on 20/03/2017 15:59

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Alvez 48 another one who comes out with this"on paper we have a better squad than Burnley". Same with your fans saying "we'll be great in the premier league because our playing style suits it more than the championship".
About time you had a reality check, if your players were as good as some of you seem to think they are you'd be safe by now. But you're not. Face facts you deluded idiot.
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bear66 Posted on 20/03/2017 16:01

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I thought Man U were massively devoid of Premier League quality on Sunday. They were very lucky they has two match winners, but otherwise they looked very nervous of our direct attacking force.
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Alvez_48 Posted on 20/03/2017 16:17

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Get back to your mackam board cruk.

We do have a better squad than Burnley on paper.

My point is simple col... Karanka's time ended due to him not due to spending and players.

Whatever other reasons to suggest we couldn't have more points at this point of the season is just not accurate. We saw that in 20 minutes yesterday.
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sasboro1 Posted on 20/03/2017 16:20

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
at least getting rid of karanka will prove our squad is just not been good enough
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American_Mary Posted on 20/03/2017 16:21
Edited On: 20/03/2017 19:31
When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
The players we brought in did not add enough quality to the squad.

Karanka tried a system that got results at first and that made us hard to beat, possibly recognising our shortage of attacking quality or possibly that's just the way he plays.

Teams sussed the way we played after a while and our results tailed off, Karanka was unable or unwilling to change systems, but we all thought that the January window we'd add personnel to improve the first team.

In January the transfer committee, Karanka included, tried to get players in of the ability needed, for one reason or another we failed to land those targets and ended up with Gestede and Bamford replacing Rhodes and Nugent, neither of whom would be seen as guaranteed first team starters.

The results since January have not improved, injuries and a inability to create or take chances, allied with reported unrest behind the scenes made Karanka's position untenable, the performances at Palace and Stoke to me made it obvious the players had stopped playing for Karanka and he was taking us down. He had to go, he should have gone after the Stoke game.

I expected and hoped that we'd get a new manager in for a 'free hit' FA Cup quarter final, a feelgood experienced appointment that would lift fans and players alike, what has happened is we have made a damp squib appointment that has removed the chance to lift the club and give us some real hope.

The finger of culpability is pointed in various directions and to try and say it's down to one person or another is too simplistic, as is using other clubs as examples, a well run club succeeds a club that is badly managed fails.

We're all Boro fans, maybe now is time to draw a line in what has gone on and try and move forward without the unnecessary he said, you said, they said Division that seems to have become the mother lode of this board.

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bear66 Posted on 20/03/2017 16:21

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
It could do. But if Agnew had 6 fit back four players . . .
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 20/03/2017 19:57

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
"We do have a better squad than Burnley on paper."

It's a pity that football is played on a football pitch, where Burnley, both last season and this, have proved they they're better than us.

This whole "on paper" thing is completely subjective, and quite often biased (if Gibson is better than Keane why does one get picked for England and the other doesn't for example?).

You keep telling yourself that we're better than Team A or Team B on paper, but the fact is we're only better than Sunderland at the moment.
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Alvez_48 Posted on 20/03/2017 20:08

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Lol due to the manager and system ... You walked into that.
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mikeyyyy Posted on 20/03/2017 20:09

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Who has a worse first 11 than us?
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redwurzel Posted on 20/03/2017 20:27

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
This Bournemouth and Burnley they don't spend money myth is rubbish.

Bournemouth broke the financial fair limits when they were promoted and had about five very paid centre forwards opposed to our 3 on cheaper wages in 2015 (Kike, Vossen, Bamford).

Burnley paid £14.5m for Brady and sold no one for significant money to pay for it. Dyche has done a very good job but his squad of players are probably slightly better than ours on paper - they had 5 points more than us last season.

We took some risks with Valdes, Degredo, Fischer, De Roon, Barragan, Espinoza all really new to the Premiership and English football - 1 of those came off - 1 out of 5 is not good enough.

Burnley and Bournemouth have spent a bit better by buying/loaning players used to English conditions and proven in them.

The current squad lacks quality. I would look at WBA as a team we could match on resources and look how they buy. James Morrison would have been a better buy than DeRoon.
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JLinardi Posted on 20/03/2017 21:33

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
I think the point has been missed here.

To many people overly focusing blame on one issue rather than looking at the big picture.

EVERYONE has played their part in this balls up of a season, Gibson, bausor, karanka, Gill and the players.

Ive been singled out as a 'super fan' type that can't see any negatives etc but that isn't true at all. Ive constantly tried to make the point that it's been a collective fcuck up, karanka has made plenty of mistakes but so have others including the players.

My issue this season has always been people focusing blame on karanka while others get a free ride. I didn't think it was fair on karanka who was doing what he thought was best with what he had and eventually the pressure has cracked him.
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Dr_Drake_Ramoray Posted on 20/03/2017 21:38

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
You could see at the start of the season that the squad wasn't good enough; unbalanced, full of 'work horses', holding players and De Penas. We needed pace, creativity, guile, goals... essentially better footballers than what we had.

Karanka blaming the recruitment but he must have okayed the players surely.
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mikeyyyy Posted on 20/03/2017 22:38

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Yeah but, who in the league has a worst first 11 than us?
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JLinardi Posted on 20/03/2017 23:53

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
He probably did ok the players drake but people go on as if he's chose Fischer, gestede and bamford over bale, costa and rashford.

It was pretty well publicised that we went after about 2 or 3 right backs before we ended up with barragan.

How many left sided players turned us down before we ended up with Fischer? How many midfielders turned us down before we got de roon?

The whole point of karanka being head coach was he concentrates on the playing side and others look after transfers etc. So who was it who identified the back up options? Who was it that failed to get our higher choice targets in? Why did they turn us down?

It was obvious the players karanka wanted in January, who failed to have a back up plan? Who let the whole thing go on until the last week of January? Why did we have no alternatives lined up?

See it's alright saying karanka 'okayed them' but there's so much more to it than that.
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 22/03/2017 00:42

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
* Raises bat and claps to the pavilion after first century in years *
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festa5 Posted on 22/03/2017 07:15

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
Karanka seemed pretty happy with the transfer business in the summer. I think it's fair to say he probably underestimated the premier league or overestimated the quality of signings.

He clearly started the season believing we had the players to play 4231 but wasn't long before he changed to a more defensive line up.

January was where he clearly felt let down, but of course no one knows what went on behind the scenes. His preferred targets were unrealistic though, no one knows if he turned down alternatives or not.
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The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 05/04/2017 20:19

When do you stop blaming the manager or the system...

 
So we've changed to a 4-4-2 and lo and behold it hasn't suddenly turned us into Real Madrid and hasn't stopped the individual mistakes...
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