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BRR2 Posted on 16/07/2017 18:40
Edited On: 16/07/2017 18:45the public sector premium
 
I see the boy Hammond is in trouble for daring to suggest that some sections of the public sector might be overpaid. Does he have a point though?

I'm of the view that we tend to take our emergency services personnel somewhat for granted and are quite lucky that they do the job for reasons other than money, in many instances. But what of the rest?

It was fairly well known within the SCS that if you wanted to cash in on your seniority the smart move to make was to head for the upper echelons of local government, where pay and T&C's were often startlingly better than anything we could expect within Government. And, given how poor a lot of local government was (and still is), you could legitimately argue that the public were (and are) not getting value for money from them.

I think there are problems in the Civil Service too. My experience is that at the centre of Government, most of the "heavy lifting" is done at Grade 7 / Grade 5 level ; they are the people who do most of the policy development and research, the lion's share of Ministerial briefing and provide most of the support to the Parliamentary process.

The very top of the senior Civil Service (by which I mean Grade 3 and above) is full of very clever people who are not good managers, and who also tend to unnecessarily hamstring the people immediately below them who do most of the high value work.

Equally, the lower echelons of the Civil Service is full of people who would struggle to hold down a job elsewhere, who add little or no value and who are unbelievably hard to get rid of. Overpaid? You bet they are, high and low grades both.

So does Mr Hammond have a point? Of course he does. But it is very different to make the point without a lot of offence being taken. Some of which is genuine, of course.

I'd be interested in views.

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cheshire_tangerine Posted on 16/07/2017 18:44

the public sector premium
I cant wait till we get our Club back. [;)]
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insider Posted on 16/07/2017 18:49

the public sector premium
BRR. I'm not sure what grade you achieved in the CS but your post makes me think you were in the SCS. Your comment about lower grades in the Civil Service is quite frankly appalling and so far from the truth that if I were a Civil Servant in that grade I'd be contacting Clifford Chance.
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LANCASHIRELALA Posted on 16/07/2017 18:55

the public sector premium
It's not often I disagree with you Robbie but there are a lot of very hard working people knocking about in operations within the cs, at lower grades. Inefficiency isn't tolerated like it used to be.
Do I want an increased payrise? At the moment no, am happy to tow the austerity line.

Can't comment for other public sector workers though, not my domain.
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BRR2 Posted on 16/07/2017 18:58

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LALA

I know that. Equally, there were some people you knew you just could not trust with even simple tasks. I'll hazard a guess that you know a few of those.
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LANCASHIRELALA Posted on 16/07/2017 19:05

the public sector premium
I used to Robbie but not so much now. The need to perform is paramount where I am. If you can't walk the walk you won't last as long as previously.
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SEASIDE2016 Posted on 16/07/2017 19:08

the public sector premium
I can't say I am surprised that some have been quick to knock Robbie's post and particularly his comments about those in the lower grades.

Let's be honest about it, does anybody actually disagree with what he said ?
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Cagey Posted on 16/07/2017 19:09

the public sector premium
BRR , I get the impression that you felt that most people below you grad wise were poor and that most people above you grade wise were poor .
Hammond said that the public sector was overpaid if you take account of employers pension on costs .
How many pensionable years did you accumulate ?
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LANCASHIRELALA Posted on 16/07/2017 19:12

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Well obviously I do Seaside and I said so and why [;)]
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Lytham_FY8 Posted on 16/07/2017 19:20

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I can only speak from experience but NHS upper management is generally shocking, careerist chancers who sometimes literally can't make a single decision, the worst for this are the CCG who appear to exist simply to waste million upon millions of tax payers money, but obviously I'm against commissioning, so may be biased.

In contrast there's little or no incompetence below Band 7, you just simply couldn't get away with it.







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insider Posted on 16/07/2017 19:20
Edited On: 16/07/2017 19:22
the public sector premium
2016. I disagree absolutely with what BRR says. I'm not saying there aren't some civil servants in the "pleb" grades that are poor performers but pro-rata, over the years, I would speculate there were a lot more poor performers in the SCS grades where numbers have reduced significantly, some through early retirement. [;)]
And don't forget MP's are Grade 6 Civil Servants.
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SEASIDE2016 Posted on 16/07/2017 19:21

the public sector premium
No problem LALA but I am amazed that you are not surrounded by the type of people that Robbie describes.

I would not have posted what Robbie did on here but folly to argue with what he says re those in lower grades.

When we talk about efficiency surely the question should be whether something/somebody is efficient and not whether they are less inefficient than it/they used to be ?
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SEASIDE2016 Posted on 16/07/2017 19:26

the public sector premium
Insider - Apologies, I was really referring to what Robbie had to say about those working in lower grades.

Putting comparisons with inefficiencies in the SCS to one side, I am amazed that anybody disagrees with what Robbie said.

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TangerineArmy Posted on 16/07/2017 19:37
Edited On: 16/07/2017 19:39
the public sector premium
I'm a low EO grade in the civ (I basically don't wasn't to progress as happy as I am) and ure comments are a XXXXXX insult.

Many of the senior grades they could hey rid of as aint a clue.. Live in there well paid bubble and no idea how it works on the shop floor.

As for well paid....ure having a laugh... MPs then ure talking... But us low civil workers no.. Get ure facts right.



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Lytham_FY8 Posted on 16/07/2017 19:38

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Do you think you were overpaid Bazzle?

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BRR2 Posted on 16/07/2017 19:46

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FY8

I think I was tremendous value for money, and I could have earned a lot more had I taken up a couple of offers of jobs in local government. So, no. [smi] **

** I would say that, wouldn't I?
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tommytwojags Posted on 16/07/2017 19:51
Edited On: 16/07/2017 19:52
the public sector premium
I think he said that taking into account pension benefits public sector workers were 10% better paid than equivalent private sector workers. Who's campaigning for private sector workers?
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insider Posted on 16/07/2017 19:54
Edited On: 16/07/2017 19:55
the public sector premium
Well Robbie credit where credit is due, you are a good note-taker. But in the bit of the CS that I have knowledge of the note-takers were the junior grades and also did a damn fine job. [;)]
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BRR2 Posted on 16/07/2017 20:04

the public sector premium
insider [smi]

I should say, I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I think in any big monolithic institution like the CS there are bound to be areas that offer poor vfm and in MY experience the culture often makes it worse. I'm really looking to see what other people have experienced and get a feel for whether Hammond is justified in making the points he has.
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LANCASHIRELALA Posted on 16/07/2017 20:06

the public sector premium
I will say that my daughter started in the cs a few months back, lower grade. 30 of them started 6 have already left for higher paid private sector jobs.

There are lazy ill qualified people in all professions. New starters get 6 months probation in the cs now if you can't cut the mustard you're gone no questions asked.
Do I agree with that. Of course. You have to make sure public spending is well utilized.
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insider Posted on 16/07/2017 20:08

the public sector premium
Robbie. I'd love to discuss this with off board. I'll look you out and introduce myself at an away game this season. Put your bowler hat on. [;)]
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SEASIDE2016 Posted on 16/07/2017 20:14

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Insider - Yes, I'd say it would be better discussed of the board and I imagine we'd all agree.
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balladofathinman Posted on 16/07/2017 20:38

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Cannot agree enough with Lythams post.

As someone who started as an AA and now is 'tp'd' to G7 the ineptitude grows further the higher you get. Due to regular VR exercises a load of our good Senior Managers have left and we are left with what Lytham correctly terms as chancers.

Basically we promote people unsuitable for the responsibility it brings as there is a large gap in talent.

The G7's and 6's I work directly with cannot make a simple decision, its quite embarrassing.
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BRR2 Posted on 16/07/2017 20:39

the public sector premium
insider [^]

as for the hat, I rarely take it off. [:P]
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LANCASHIRELALA Posted on 16/07/2017 20:42

the public sector premium
I agree with that Ballad. Sometimes the common sense is on the shop floor. People stay at that level for their own reasons in many instances. Don't write them off as lazy chancers it often isn't the case.
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juniorbents_platformshoes Posted on 16/07/2017 20:51

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Are teachers overpaid? I'd love to see anyone in government do the job for a year. They wouldn't last a term.
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Lytham_FY8 Posted on 16/07/2017 20:52

the public sector premium
To be honest, I find it all very easy and it annoys me when others don't, so although I earn my paltry wage easily I'm an irritating bellend to work with.



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LANCASHIRELALA Posted on 16/07/2017 20:58

the public sector premium
Lytham [:D]

I am happy with my lot too.

Junior,as for teaching you deserve more. From my experience raising 2 kids the stress of containing and educating 30 a day, day in day out would floor me.
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Bloodtangerine Posted on 16/07/2017 21:00

the public sector premium
Couldn't give a Tinker's Cuss
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bfcpete Posted on 16/07/2017 21:24

the public sector premium
Robbie - I have worked with different levels of Government civil servants over the the last 37 years. Many were very bright but their policy developments usually had very little understanding of how services work on the ground or the problems they create. Because of this many would not survive if they worked in local government and I have seen evidence of that. Regarding the argument about 'premium' in the public sector the only real area that is true is in terms of pensions, but that is also partly because the employee pays in more as well (I pay 12% of my salary). On pay I have had just a 1% increase in thv last 8 years and there is no doubt that I could have earned far more in my profession in the private sector sector over the last 37 years.
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stannespool Posted on 16/07/2017 23:43

the public sector premium
I worked in the public sector for 23 years and then as a supplier of services to the public sector for another 22 years. In my opinion most of the 'civil servants' worked pretty well. Some were limited but still put in a shift. Most of the waste occurred in the hiring of Private sector specialists who earned vast sums of money and added very little value in return.
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bpoolrover Posted on 17/07/2017 01:14

the public sector premium
Teachers are quite well paid do you not think junior?
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juniorbents_platformshoes Posted on 17/07/2017 05:53

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No not really and essentially they've had a pay cut for the last 7 years.
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TangerineNige Posted on 17/07/2017 06:59

the public sector premium
I think that is a terrible attack on public sector workers BRR2.
Granted many are overpaid and get 2 pensions but I think you really mean many would struggle to get a job of equal pay and conditions in the private sector rather than hold a job down.You really believe a lower grade CS could not be a Tesco checkout assistant?
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