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SeasiderKurt Posted on 14/07/2017 14:22
England v SA (2nd Test)
 
82-2 at the moment, Broad and Anderson bowled relatively good this morning. Interesting period coming up.
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chrisbrad67 Posted on 14/07/2017 16:08

England v SA (2nd Test)
Dawson is cannon fodder for the likes of Amla & De Kock - should be nowhere near the test team.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 14/07/2017 16:15

England v SA (2nd Test)
I can see why he's there, but his bowling in the 2nd innings got him his place.

Mark Wood hasn't done much since he came back really.
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chrisbrad67 Posted on 14/07/2017 16:38

England v SA (2nd Test)
If they want to play a second spinner they should get Crane in and see what he can do at test level ?

I like Wood but yep not made much impact since his return . . we are relying on the old boys today.

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SeasiderKurt Posted on 14/07/2017 16:40

England v SA (2nd Test)
I agree brad, but selfishly, if you saw him bowl in the 20/20, staying with Hampshire is best for him now.

Especially with Boom Boom to learn from!
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tigger Posted on 14/07/2017 17:17

England v SA (2nd Test)
England on top now, 235/6
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 14/07/2017 17:21

England v SA (2nd Test)
Nothing left for the Saffers now. This won't last much longer 🏏
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ColinMethven Posted on 14/07/2017 17:51

England v SA (2nd Test)
[:D]
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ColinMethven Posted on 14/07/2017 18:43

England v SA (2nd Test)
74 run unbeaten partnership for the 7th wicket[rle]
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ColinMethven Posted on 15/07/2017 12:08

England v SA (2nd Test)
Wickets tumbling in Nottingham
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 15/07/2017 12:15

England v SA (2nd Test)
Nightmare so far [sad]
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 15/07/2017 12:52

England v SA (2nd Test)
Root to the rescue again [8D]
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ColinMethven Posted on 15/07/2017 14:08

England v SA (2nd Test)
105/3, 230 behind
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Ihateudo Posted on 15/07/2017 16:36

England v SA (2nd Test)
Jennings is out of his depth and ballance has had his chance. Surely we have better english batters [|)]
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spider29 Posted on 15/07/2017 17:02

England v SA (2nd Test)
We need some proper test batsman,,
for the next test
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chrisbrad67 Posted on 15/07/2017 19:30

England v SA (2nd Test)
Typical ECB ... play out of form Div.2 Jennings when Div.1 Stoneman was bang in form.

Saying that Ballance was in form and look how he's performed.

It's a big step up from CC to test level.

Just a shame Hammy is having a barren spell.

Stoneman, Vince & Crane in the next test please.
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SEASIDE2016 Posted on 15/07/2017 22:29

England v SA (2nd Test)
3610 - I know the Saffers have nothing left but I still think they might manage to pull this out if the fire.

[:D]
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 15/07/2017 23:35

England v SA (2nd Test)
I agree, I wanna see Crane in ahead of Dawson. Crane is special.

Vince for Ballance and tell Vince he's in all summer.

Not sure about Jennings. I'd give him the final test.
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 16/07/2017 08:17

England v SA (2nd Test)
2016 I know the risks of comments like that on here [8D]


Morris and the big fella should not have been allowed to get 80 plus [;)]

It looks like we have a one or two man team, what happened to the hype, "This England team bat all the way down" [?]

Where is KP when we need him?
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Raging_Bull Posted on 16/07/2017 09:22
Edited On: 16/07/2017 09:25
England v SA (2nd Test)
Firstly we shouldn't get too down on yesterday, there was very bowler friendly conditions out there as was quite clear when the Saffers tail got mopped up very quickly, so a low score was inevitable.

Having said that, the selectors have made some poor decisions, Jennings and Balance should never have been picked and Adil Rashid is a much better spin and batting option than Liam Dawson who's not even the best spinner for his county, young Mason Crane gets my vote there, he could be the next Shane Warne for me.

Watching Balance bat is painful, he looks likely to be dismissed every time a bowler runs up to bowl at him.

The opener slot with Cook should go to the talented Alex Hales who is showing he has the ability to be more than just a limited overs batter, he has more talent than Jennings and Balance put together, Hameed has been poor this season for Lancs but in time will take over from Cook as our premier opener.

Number three spot is the issue with nobody out there screaming pick me, usually this slot is for the teams best batter so Root would be the obvious choice, if we did that then there would be a number of options to go for in the middle order with James Vince my personal choice, adding Rashid as a spin option increases our batting strength further.

All IMO of course[;)]
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 16/07/2017 09:40

England v SA (2nd Test)
KP is available for a top order batting slot [8)]
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straightatthewall Posted on 16/07/2017 10:03

England v SA (2nd Test)
im not sure why 2 spinners were considered vital at Trent bridge; a ground that has always been more seamer friendly than a hunting ground for spinners.

I don't see much logic in the thought process as far as the spinners are concerned, just like the winter tour when nobody seemed to know what their role was.
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ElBurroSinNombre Posted on 17/07/2017 11:30

England v SA (2nd Test)
Bull,

Agree with most of that - surely that is the end in this series for Jennings after failing in the second innings - Hales to replace him.
Rashid offers more than Dawson IMO - Dawson got hit out of the attack. Ballance has technical deficiencies but keeps getting in and then out in this series. This position might suit him, he is at least a fighter - would love to see him score a big ton here. Watching this morning it looks like Philander will remove his off stump quite soon.
Series shaping up well - SA are a good test team and will be even better with Rabada, Steyn and de Villiers back in the team.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 17/07/2017 11:38

England v SA (2nd Test)
Sometimes you have players that are XXXXXX good county cricketers, I think we can say Ballance is one of them. Granted I'd like him to prove me wrong now, but international class bowlers figure him out easily.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 17/07/2017 11:41

England v SA (2nd Test)
Yeah, I'd like that dismissal to be the end of the Ballance experiment.
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ElBurroSinNombre Posted on 17/07/2017 11:45

England v SA (2nd Test)
Seems pointless Root batting at four - he may as well be three as he gets to the crease at the same time as most number 3s.

That should be the end for Ballance but somehow I suspect he'll get another chance. It's like making the same mistake over and over.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 17/07/2017 12:24

England v SA (2nd Test)
Where's Nick Compton when you need him!?
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Raging_Bull Posted on 17/07/2017 12:51
Edited On: 17/07/2017 13:47
England v SA (2nd Test)
I'm no Mystic Meg neither am I a qualified test cricket selector, but my in depth previous post more than confirms everything

This will be wrapped up before tea[sad]
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ColinMethven Posted on 17/07/2017 13:50

England v SA (2nd Test)
RB[^]
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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 13:50

England v SA (2nd Test)
What the feck was that from Bairstow?
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bfcpete Posted on 17/07/2017 13:54

England v SA (2nd Test)
Jennings, Balance, Dawson and Wood all need replacing for the final test
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poolcat Posted on 17/07/2017 13:58

England v SA (2nd Test)
Another recall for Vince beckons [xx(].
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cheshire_tangerine Posted on 17/07/2017 14:03

England v SA (2nd Test)
Cricket threads on here are my favourite, talk about swinging from one extreme to the other? Isnt this the same team that wiped the floor with South Africa in the first test? All of a sudden half the team needs replacing. We've been totally outplayed in this match just as the same team totally outplayed SA in the first Test. Its cricket, Ive totally enjoyed both matches but then Im a bigger fan of the game than I am of a particular team even though my preference is naturally for England.
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20togo Posted on 17/07/2017 14:15

England v SA (2nd Test)
same team ches, but within that team it's only two or three who are doing the damage.

Balance and Jennings did nowt in the first test as did Dawson. Rashid is probably a better spinner than Dawson and he's probably a better batsman too.
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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 14:15

England v SA (2nd Test)
Not sure it's fickleness here Chesh. There's been an obvious issue with 2 of the batting positions for a good while and no obvious signs that the selectors have a clue what to do about it. So people are picking up on that and discussing...

All said, I'd back us to win the series with confidence.
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ElBurroSinNombre Posted on 17/07/2017 14:32

England v SA (2nd Test)
Not fickle at all, Chesh
During the last test thread there was a conversation that England could be number 1 in the world if they could sort out positions 2 and 3 and find a world class spinner. Wood looks like he is injured so yes those four will be lucky to hold on to their places. None of them have really made a big contribution so far.
My guess would be that Dawson and Ballance keep their places but the other two miss out. Ballance shouldn't be considered again but I think that Root wants him in the team.
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cheshire_tangerine Posted on 17/07/2017 14:39

England v SA (2nd Test)
I dont think I used the term fickle.

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Tikataka Posted on 17/07/2017 14:39

England v SA (2nd Test)
Looking like a 6th defeat in 7 tests. The majority played on the sub continent. Woakes return can't come quick enough. Ballance has probably played in his last test.
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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 14:43

England v SA (2nd Test)
ElBurro,

regarding the spin option, I'd say it's more about finding a role for the spinners within the bowling attack than having to find a world class spinner. The issue for me, is the total lack of obvious plan, which is as evident today as it was in the winter.

Think about the 2005 team; Giles was in the team to provide a spin option and support a very strong and balanced pace attack. Which, ironically, is the role Maharaj is playing for the Saffers now...

The introduction of Dawson for this series (to date) is symptomatic of a total lack of clarity in thinking. No offence to the guy, but his bowling is so average, that I'd want him to be batting a lot higher than 8, otherwise what's he really offering that someone else can't? It's even more bizarre when you think that Stokes provides the ultimate 2:1 because he's a genuine all-rounder. That should remove all thoughts of a bits and pieces player from any conversation.
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 17/07/2017 14:49

England v SA (2nd Test)
NEVER call a match until the other team has batted [sad] [|)]
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ElBurroSinNombre Posted on 17/07/2017 15:00

England v SA (2nd Test)
Straighters,

To me Ali is a world class spinner, a consistently good performer who takes important wickets and can bat in test cricket. But he is no Swann - but how often do we get one of those (Tuffnell was very good as well). art of the problem - if it is one - is that Stokes and Ali allow us to make experimental selections in the extra bowlers.
SA are a good team - we should play our best team and at the moment that does not include Dawson.
Just been all out - hope we can show some fight at the Oval.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 17/07/2017 15:03

England v SA (2nd Test)
20s, not true. Very similar statistics in all forms of the game. He isn't better and Dawson can be flexible in the order.

He opens in FC for Hampshire and can bat at 4. Wouldn't see Rashid do that.

Rashid was awful in his last few tests, white ball specialist in my opinion. Not a test bowler, doesn't have the patience or consistency to be a test spinner.

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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 15:03

England v SA (2nd Test)
I think we agree on the spinners. If you CAN find a top class spinner, the great. If you can't, then you work with what you have and ensure that bowlers know their roles.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 17/07/2017 15:06

England v SA (2nd Test)
Regarding Dawson, he's a stop gap and we massively missed Mr Woakes. For the wickets and runs.

Ballance for Vince.
Jennings for Stoneman or Hameed.

Either play Hameed and get his confidence up for the Ashes or don't play him in either series.
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ElBurroSinNombre Posted on 17/07/2017 15:09

England v SA (2nd Test)
Agreed.
Selectors flailing around - Batty, Ansari, now Dawson - no plan just throw another ingredient into the mix in the hope that it works. Much easier / better (IMO) to play another tried and tested seamer like Finn whose record in test cricket is really very good - but probably out of favour because he doesn't bat.

It's the same with the opener no 3. position - anyone remember Duckett and Billings from only a few months ago. Tried, failed, discarded.
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NewburyOne Posted on 17/07/2017 15:19

England v SA (2nd Test)
A truly horrid performance on so many levels. It's clear we lack some steal at the top of the order. We're pretty much 2 down before we face a ball, which cannot help Cook, Root or the middle order. I suspect there will be changes, Dawson is the obvious one for the next test at the Oval. Jennings just doesn't seem to have the technique or experience to grind an innings out at this level. Stoneman is next up and I'd be tempted to play an extra batsman instead of Dawson. I guess it's modern cricket that such swings happen, you'd have to say SA with Rabada back will be favourites for the series now. How things change in less than a week!
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Tony_Green_71 Posted on 17/07/2017 15:20

England v SA (2nd Test)
Too many Yorkies in the team.....
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dogdoos Posted on 17/07/2017 15:26

England v SA (2nd Test)
I think if most people on here performed that badly in their job, they wouldn't get paid, the selectors should withhold the match fee for the England players, totally gutless
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Pool_Rule_4EVA Posted on 17/07/2017 15:32

England v SA (2nd Test)
Stoneman, Vince & Crane in the next test for Jennings, Ballance and Dawson. Not sure really about bringing Vince back but the well is dry!!

Chris - please don't mention the name Hameed at test level, he wouldn't even be in the Lanky team if I had my way (a one season wonder!)
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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 15:33

England v SA (2nd Test)
Kurt,

the interesting thing about having Woakes back would be that it wouldn't solve the overall issue. You'd either have 5 seamers, which seems excessive or drop Wood and you still have the issue of one player adding nothing other than an alternative and second spin option and better batting (on paper). As you said earlier, if you want that, then it's either Rashid or Crane.

What I might consider is only dropping Balance and bringing in Stoneman/Hales whoever...Jennings would need to score runs sooner rather than later though or the problem returns. You could also bolster the batting by adding Buttler at 7.

So the X1 might be:

Cook
Jennings
Stoneman (or he opens, Jennings drops to 3 and you break up the left handers)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

4 seamers and a spinner. Lots of batting down the order and Root still comes in at 4, which seems to be his preference.



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Raging_Bull Posted on 17/07/2017 15:47

England v SA (2nd Test)
Kurt, do some research pal.

Firstly you need to be in form to get called up to play for England, Hameed is currently averaging 19 in county cricket and hasn't hit a half century all summer, that's why he;s not on the radar.

Do you really think he could get in to double figures against the new ball attack of the Saffers?[sad]
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ElBurroSinNombre Posted on 17/07/2017 15:48

England v SA (2nd Test)
That selection doesn't really address our problems at 2 and 3. Stoneman may be no better than Ballance at test level and Jennings looks like a walking wicket atm. Woakes definitely starts when he is fit.

My pick;
Buttler (or Billings) to keep wicket, Bairstow moves to three and give either Finn or Crane the spare position depending on what the wicket is expected to do. So;

Cook
Stoneman / Hales
Bairstow
Root
Buttler / Billings
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Crane / Finn
Anderson
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fcblackpool Posted on 17/07/2017 15:50

England v SA (2nd Test)
Not seen much of it on TV but listened to TMS a bit.

On TMS they were saying that England don't know how to reply to a par score first up innings. If they bat first they dictate and there's not too much pressure on the MO, but when asked to accumulate they aren't up to it. There was some stat about about losing tests where the oppo bat first and score 300+.

They also said, Vaughan I think??, that Ali does not like or respond to the pressure of being the sole spinner and that's why Dawson was in for Woakes. He regards himself as a batter who can bowl a bit. Pretty poor if true.

If I was sum up England then I'd say they are one trick ponies- great when they are allowed to dictate, but not great as reacting to the oppo being on top, in all departments. Also I'm not sure Root is captain grade. He's 26 and allowed himself to be bullied into reviews by the ego's of Broad and Stokes. having played 55 tests Root should know a bit more than he appears to.

much will now be made of the personnel- Jennings will play again I'm sure. Ballance MAY get one more shot (Stoneman or Mulan? otherwise). Dawson won't play- probably an extra seamer and Ali told to accept the spinners role. Wood will play.

Good series made better by playing it in summer on proper grounds ie not May at C-L-S.

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fcblackpool Posted on 17/07/2017 15:51

England v SA (2nd Test)
raging, Jennings is in no form and has faced poor Div 2 bowlers.
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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 16:02

England v SA (2nd Test)
I'd give Jennings at least 1 more game - probably 2 - because all the others have been afforded the same and you have to assume someone saw something in him to start with.

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chrisbrad67 Posted on 17/07/2017 16:12

England v SA (2nd Test)
I heard Woakes on the radio during the Lancs v Warks CC game and he said he's not far off a return [^]

Pool - I mentioned the same 3 changes as you do and no Hammy ... although I notice he got a nice 71 the other day for the seconds [;)]

While he's out of form for Lancs he should be nowhere near the test squad.

Even if he has a great second half of the season I also think the any suggestion of an Ashes call up would be the wrong choice.

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BRR2 Posted on 17/07/2017 16:12

England v SA (2nd Test)
I think the bowling issue is straightforward enough. Pick Anderson, Broad, Wood or Woakes at 9, Moeen at 8, Stokes at 7 (possibly 6).

I'd have Stoneman opening with Cook, would bring Bell back at 3 (none of the players who have played there since he stopped are anywhere near as good) and then have Root at 4. You then need someone to go alongside Bairstow at 5 and 6/7. Pick someone who can bowl a bit there and you have real options.
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bfcpete Posted on 17/07/2017 16:18

England v SA (2nd Test)
We also had 7 left handed batters in the team. Need a couple more right handed ones to even things up and to break the rhythm of the opposition bowlers
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spider29 Posted on 17/07/2017 16:22

England v SA (2nd Test)
We need some left handlers who can bat
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 17/07/2017 16:31

England v SA (2nd Test)
BRR I think KP can bowl a bit as well [;)]
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straightatthewall Posted on 17/07/2017 17:02

England v SA (2nd Test)
We have Stokes, Woakes and Ali. All 3 are in the all-rounder category in varying degrees. And if you use Bairstow to keep, then you effectively have another all-rounder too.
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fcblackpool Posted on 17/07/2017 17:05

England v SA (2nd Test)
strops, we have a team of white ball cricketers bar maybe 2/3/4[;)]
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scratchingshed Posted on 17/07/2017 17:30

England v SA (2nd Test)
Joe Root brought down a notch or two, big win in his first test match as skipper but a massive defeat in his second, just surprised S A batted for so long in their second innings everyone just knew England would be skitteled out well short. [|)]
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fcblackpool Posted on 17/07/2017 17:36

England v SA (2nd Test)
They batted because there was over 2 days left. The aim is to win eos. Also the more they batted and took the rip the bigger dent in the ego's of the England team.

Best result today for someone who is a cricket lover over any nation.
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SeasiderKurt Posted on 17/07/2017 17:38

England v SA (2nd Test)
RB, I know and follow cricket pretty emphatically. I know the form he is in, but he has potential. And if we're gonna bring guys in like Ballance who has absolutely smashed the county scene this year and fail. After attempt 3 or 4, it's time to change strategy? Maybe look at players like Hameed, and tell the kid, you're Englands main opener. Rather than going round in a Jennings/Robson/Hales round robin of who can do the worst scenario. He didn't do too badly did he last time? Maybe might punch him into form.
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fcblackpool Posted on 17/07/2017 17:55

England v SA (2nd Test)
England can do things to players- mess with little technical things. They did with Jimmy at the start. And maybe they have done that with Hammy.

Keep these coaching guru's out of the way and let these players work with what got them the call up in the first place.

I can imagine the conversation with Hammy first up: 'You're a fine player, but.....'.
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chrisbrad67 Posted on 17/07/2017 18:47

England v SA (2nd Test)
I think you may have a point there FC .... I know Hammy is a great player but something happened with England that's knocked him off course. The same happened to Kerrigan and going back a bit Foxy Fowler .... they don't like Lancs that ECB lot.
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fcblackpool Posted on 17/07/2017 18:57

England v SA (2nd Test)
I think they told Hammy to stop nets with his dad and leave it to them.

Forgot they messed with Keggers' head and going back to Foxy, it was where my lack of affinity with England cricket started, or maybe earlier with Frank Hayes. I'm totally neutral, well maybe not quite[;)]

Foxy btw was way ahead of his time, but wasn't 'old school tie' friendly. Didn't he make a double century in India and was dropped next game or soon after???

Also remember a ODI v India, probably 77. FF had 49 to his name in no time and Chris Tavera 1.Trevor Bailey was on TMS announcing he'd seen an England player 'and it wasn't Graeme Fowler'[:(!]
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Raging_Bull Posted on 17/07/2017 19:06

England v SA (2nd Test)
Kurt, there's no question he has potential, but right now he's miles off, throwing him in against the SA new ball would be pointless.

No, I'd go for the talented Alex Hales to open with Cook, Root comes in at three with Vince at four, Ben Stokes and Bairstow five and six, Moen Ali at seven then the conditions would dictate of we had a second spinner or four seamers.
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1950spoolfan Posted on 17/07/2017 19:48

England v SA (2nd Test)
Hameed is struggling to justify his place in the Lancs team at the moment.It wouldn`t do him or England any favours to play him just now when he`s badly out of form as Jennings has shown unless you`re a well established class player.
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Raging_Bull Posted on 17/07/2017 19:52

England v SA (2nd Test)
50's. my point exactly, the kid needs time to work ou why he has gone backwards this season.

If he can't get runs against run of the mill county plodders, he's going to get rinsed against the Saffers front line pacemen.
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Tikataka Posted on 17/07/2017 22:10
Edited On: 17/07/2017 22:22
England v SA (2nd Test)
The problem with the current team is a lack of proven quality. Cook, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Broad and Anderson fit the criteria - Woakes can probably be added when he's fit. Four players in this test are playing for a place - and two batters in the top three. Its hardly a situation likely to promote consistency. We probably need double the number of proven test players to account for injury and loss of form.

So its either selection or not enough quality on the county circuit. Compare us to South Africa who wouldn't have picked Morris for Trent Bridge had Rabada not been banned - yet the 12th man bowled around 90mph and took out our best batters this morning.

Its also worth comparing our progress in shorter formats of the game under Bayliss - which I believe was an important part of his brief. Has the ECB put too much store on One Day stuff at the expense of the longer format?

So maybe a permanent switch is needed between short formats and Test cricket? Put Bayliss in charge of one day stuff and put a head coach in charge of the national team for test cricket who has a better knowledge of the domestic game - that's if better players are available who aren't being picked. I don't know enough about the county game at the moment but it could be an option.

The reality about players such as Stoneman is that unless they are picked and given a run its difficult to judge if he is any better than what we have.

It also sounds as though there is concern about fitness of key bowlers, namely Stokes and Wood (just back from injury). That's the only reason which can justify picking a team short of batting and including Dawson who looks a one day specialist from what I've seen - i.e bowls a tight line without much turn, good fielder and lower order batsman -
but unlikey to win many test matches. The coaches comments about Ali were very odd after a test match in which he'd just taken 10 wickets as well.

The immediate concern is that the Saffers have their tails up and I'd take a drawn series as of today. The bad news is that this side is badly under-prepared for an away series in Australia who (if their quicks are available) will knock our top order over like a game of skittles on much harder wickets.
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Raging_Bull Posted on 18/07/2017 00:40

England v SA (2nd Test)
Considering Stoneman plays for Surrey and the 3rd test being at the Oval then that puts him in the frame for me along with Hales.

Keaton Jennings should be axed as he's South African anyway[:I]

One thing is for sure, ditch Balance broken finger or no broken finger, second in the County averages or not, yet again he's shown he hasn't got the technique for Test cricket as the top bowlers find him out every time.

Make Root bat at three and bring in another middle order batsman like Vince and there has to be questions over Wood and Dawson.

Besides all that, don't panic[cr]
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Seasider_3610 Posted on 18/07/2017 21:30

England v SA (2nd Test)
Stoneman, Westerly or Malan to replace Injured Balance according to BBC
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